Why you can't trust measurements

I like your style and you seem like a very cool cat.

That said, we are getting way off topic. I'll speak with you privately moving forward, as to not disrupt this thread any longer. Thanks man.

My apologies to those who are paying attention or are subscribed to this thread.....now back to your regularly scheduled programming....

Tom

26 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

42 minutes ago, treitz3 said:

Measurements are an assistance IMO.
 between musicians being in the room (whether it be an ensemble or an orchestra) and a performance presented in front of you that you get engrossed into,

 

What measurements will assist you in that goal?

7 minutes ago, treitz3 said:

I'll speak with you privately moving forward, as to not disrupt this thread any longer.

Hi Tom

I don't think you/we are being off topic if talking about trusting (or not) measurements assisting you in achieving realism.

Of course happy to talk privately as well

David

On 7/30/2022 at 9:17 AM, Allan F said:

 

As edited, the above is a perfect description of the public position of a majority of both elected members and supporters of a particular political party regarding a former POTUS, both of which shall remain nameless, of course.

So back when Michael Lavorgna was the editor of Audiostream, I really pissed him off with a comment I posted that suggested there was a close relationship between his non-stop glowing reviews of expensive equipment and Audiostream's advertising dollars. He personally emailed me, threatened to block my account, and was just a total obnoxious jerk. Obviously, I hit a nerve, suggesting he was a marketing shill for high end audio manufacturers. Which he was.

This was back in 2015, and I told him that the same lack of objective thinking present in Audiostream, where the more you pay, the better the sound, without proof, people hearing huge improvements with $1,000 USB and Ethernet cables, was the same thing going on in U.S. national politics. People didn't care about logic or facts, and we saw what happened in 2016.

Attached is part of my comment on one of his reviews that set the whole thing off.

53 minutes ago, skikirkwood said:

 

So back when Michael Lavorgna was the editor of Audiostream, I really pissed him off with a comment I posted that suggested there was a close relationship between his non-stop glowing reviews of expensive equipment and Audiostream's advertising dollars. He personally emailed me, threatened to block my account, and was just a total obnoxious jerk. Obviously, I hit a nerve, suggesting he was a marketing shill for high end audio manufacturers. Which he was.

 

This was back in 2015, and I told him that the same lack of objective thinking present in Audiostream, where the more you pay, the better the sound, without proof, people hearing huge improvements with $1,000 USB and Ethernet cables, was the same thing going on in U.S. national politics. People didn't care about logic or facts, and we saw what happened in 2016.

 

Attached is part of my comment on one of his reviews that set the whole thing off.

I think part of ML’s problem is with the term “shill” or its implication. It means he’s actually getting paid for his opinions, which I doubt is true. So I can understand why he would be sensitive about it. 

BTW, ML says he pays for any equipment he keeps, and doesn’t take pieces as “presents” from manufacturers. So if he owns something, he paid for it and has put his money where his mouth is. 

3 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

Obviously, I hit a nerve, suggesting he was a marketing shill for high end audio manufacturers.

2 hours ago, firedog said:

I think part of ML’s problem is with the term “shill” or its implication. It means he’s actually getting paid for his opinions, which I doubt is true. So I can understand why he would be sensitive about it. 

BTW, ML says he pays for any equipment he keeps, and doesn’t take pieces as “presents” from manufacturers. So if he owns something, he paid for it and has put his money where his mouth is. 

To extend firedog's point--it's well documented in the annals of this site that ML is a touchy guy, it is easy to hit a nerve with him.  So I would not take hitting a nerve as evidence of anything.  I no longer read his site because when there are no comparisons or comments, and everything is good, the reading becomes monotonous.  But I take him to be an honest person

2 hours ago, firedog said:

I think part of ML’s problem is with the term “shill” or its implication. It means he’s actually getting paid for his opinions, which I doubt is true. So I can understand why he would be sensitive about it. 

BTW, ML says he pays for any equipment he keeps, and doesn’t take pieces as “presents” from manufacturers. So if he owns something, he paid for it and has put his money where his mouth is. 

Well, I didn't call him a shill in the post, just questioned the objectivity of whatever ridiculous review he just wrote up at the time. It may be true that Lavorgna pays for his own equipment. But it's also true he would never post reviews of $50 Rasberry Pi streamers or inexpensive DACS that could rival the performance of the equipment he reviewed at 100X the price.

2 minutes ago, skikirkwood said:

But it's also true he would never post reviews of $50 Rasberry Pi streamers or inexpensive DACS that could rival the performance of the equipment he reviewed at 100X the price.

It would be exciting to read about such a product.  Please share your recommendation/review

9 minutes ago, PeterG said:

 

 

To extend firedog's point--it's well documented in the annals of this site that ML is a touchy guy, it is easy to hit a nerve with him.  So I would not take hitting a nerve as evidence of anything.  I no longer read his site because when there are no comparisons or comments, and everything is good, the reading becomes monotonous.  But I take him to be an honest person

What's interesting is that when Audiostream eventually shut down it went offline. It's a Drupal site and would cost $15/month to keep the content up, and I'm sure it had a lot of good SEO. And they could do redirects to Stereophile, so why would they do that?

57 minutes ago, PeterG said:

1 hour ago, skikirkwood said:

But it's also true he would never post reviews of $50 Rasberry Pi streamers or inexpensive DACS that could rival the performance of the equipment he reviewed at 100X the price.

It would be exciting to read about such a product.  Please share your recommendation/review

me too

18 hours ago, skikirkwood said:

 

What's interesting is that when Audiostream eventually shut down it went offline. It's a Drupal site and would cost $15/month to keep the content up, and I'm sure it had a lot of good SEO. And they could do redirects to Stereophile, so why would they do that?

Audiostream dot com does redirect to Stereophile dot com. Has since the day they shut it.  Same for Innerfidelity and also Fremer’s analog site when he still had it associated with Stereophile.  
 

As for reviewers keeping products—for free or at steep “industry accommodation” discount, that is nothing new at all. Been going on for 50 years. 
The sometimes abuse of that prompted Stereophile and The Absolute Sound to years ago put policies/gatekeepers in place to eliminate—or at least standardize how reviewers and manufacturers interacted.

 But with all the small independent “web-zines” it is still the wild west. And a lot of little sites exist solely as a means to obtain free or discounted gear. Can’t tell you how many times we have been solicited for such!

Meanwhile, in Asia, the big print audiophile magazines are far more costly to get a review in. They will literally demand either big payment (many thousands of dollars) for a review or that you sign a multi-year advertising contract. 
This is why, if you pick up a copy of some of those publications, you mostly see ads placed by the local big importers—not by the manufacturers themselves. But those importers turn around and demand large extra product discounts to offset their advertising placement costs. 
I played in this game for years at my former firm, Hovland Company, so I have the receipts to prove all this. 🤑

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

Audiostream dot com does redirect to Stereophile dot com. Has since the day they shut it.  Same for Innerfidelity and also Fremer’s analog site when he still had it associated with Stereophile.  

Yes, the top-level domain audiostream.com redirects to stereophile.com. What I meant is that outside of a few articles republished on Stereophile, all of the audiostream.com content is no longer online. It's all gone. The cost to keep it online and, therefore, get traffic through Google searches is close to zero. Same is true for Innerfidelity. Curious as to why AVTech Media didn't keep all of this content online.

Not sure if this has been posted in the topic, worth watching rgardless your views.