Expectation Bias

35 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Expiation? ... Hmmm

Typo. I expected to type expectation, but failed.

12 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Frank, sorry to say, you are deluded. Everyone one has expectation bias, whether you admit it or not. It is part and parcel of the human condition. It is built-in to our brain wiring.

Of course I have expectation bias in various areas of my life. And it tends to get more inflexible as one gets older. But I was asked specifically about audio matters, in the sense of how I appraise the SQ of what I'm hearing - and for me this is something akin to being handed a glass of red wine, identity unknown, and asked what I think of it - another one for you, Paul!  Now, I've sampled a very few spectacularly impressive reds, all Australian, mind you , and so I have a 'reference' of how good it can get - so, does the drink I'm trying now have any of the virtues of what I have a very strong memory of? Depending upon the sample I have, I can tick off no boxes, a couple of boxes; or if I'm very lucky, quite a few ticks can be given! Now, I fail to see how one can use the term "expectation bias" to describe how such a process - you may differ on this, of course.

Everywhere Frank, including audio. You can't decide to turn it off. It doesn't work that way.

16 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Everywhere Frank, including audio. You can't decide to turn it off. It doesn't work that way.

So, you believe it impossible to impartially assess anything, yes?

It is hard, Frank. When people start using words like magic, etc. it tells me subjectiveness. You need both objective and subjective. One has to have both. 

Okay, another way of stating it is, that "magic" is a term that I would use when the playback doesn't put a foot wrong - it's the absence of any 'defects' in the sound that I hear; of course, nothing is perfect, but subjectively one is never aware of such. As an example, can one raise the volume, seemingly limitlessly, and at no point does it become uncomfortable to listen to? Whenever people say that there is an optimum volume for some album to be played back at, then to me that's a tell that there is too much distortion in the replay chain; at some level of volume the inaccuracy becomes too much, and the listener has no desire to hear any more of it.

On 9/14/2022 at 9:17 PM, fas42 said:

Okay, another way of stating it is, that "magic" is a term that I would use when the playback doesn't put a foot wrong - it's the absence of any 'defects' in the sound that I hear; of course, nothing is perfect, but subjectively one is never aware of such. As an example, can one raise the volume, seemingly limitlessly, and at no point does it become uncomfortable to listen to? Whenever people say that there is an optimum volume for some album to be played back at, then to me that's a tell that there is too much distortion in the replay chain; at some level of volume the inaccuracy becomes too much, and the listener has no desire to hear any more of it.

Magic is still a BS term. You still don't get it. You are expecting a change, so you hear it. That is all that is happening.

There will always be defects. You can't get away from it. 

You are just a classis BS master, is all.

Frank is a walking, talking, posting example of an audiophile who refuses to recognize that we all have expectation bias.

"Something didn't sound quite right with my 'rig.' I made a tweak - installed a different interconnect, raised my cables off the floor, stacked magazines on my speakers, or whatever - and then listened closely, and... the magic was back! Suddenly the music 'snapped back' into perfection, just like the first time I heard it thirty years ago!"

1 hour ago, Jeff_N said:

Frank is a walking, talking, posting example of an audiophile who refuses to recognize that we all have expectation bias.

 

"Something didn't sound quite right with my 'rig.' I made a tweak - installed a different interconnect, raised my cables off the floor, stacked magazines on my speakers, or whatever - and then listened closely, and... the magic was back! Suddenly the music 'snapped back' into perfection, just like the first time I heard it thirty years ago!"

THAT, my friend is EXPECTATION BIAS!

Memory is a fickle thing, also. Most audiophiles can barely remember what they listened to 20 seconds ago to compare. That is why, when you go to an audiophile sales pitch, they tell you what to expect, play the piece, explain again, and play it again. That is how they use expectation bias to sell you something.

...50% expectation bias. 50% nostalgia. 50% delusion.

11 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Magic is still a BS term. You still don't get it. You are expecting a change, so you hear it. That is all that is happening.

 

There will always be defects. You can't get away from it. 

 

You are just a classis BS master, is all.

And all the times I don't hear a change - or the SQ gets worse, what's the 'magic' in my brain that determines which way the switches flick? You don't get to see the years and years I've been fooling around, doing this sort of stuff, getting extremely frustrated at not finding answers - and shutting everything down for long periods of time, because I'm too pissed off with it all ...

Yes, there will always be defects ... ... but what counts is reducing them to the point where the brain can just discard them, completely unconsciously. Only someone who has a system at the edge of 'competent' SQ, which then falls back from that status because some tiny gremlin is getting in the way, can probably truly appreciate how transformative the difference is.

If I were to listen to your system, one of the first things I would do is wind up the volume. Whether it could sustain a decent replay quality, or just falls to pieces, would tell me a great deal about its integrity - and this is how one learns how to evolve a rig.

11 hours ago, Jeff_N said:

Frank is a walking, talking, posting example of an audiophile who refuses to recognize that we all have expectation bias.

 

"Something didn't sound quite right with my 'rig.' I made a tweak - installed a different interconnect, raised my cables off the floor, stacked magazines on my speakers, or whatever - and then listened closely, and... the magic was back! Suddenly the music 'snapped back' into perfection, just like the first time I heard it thirty years ago!"

"Something didn't sound quite right with my sports car's engine. I made a tweak - installed different spark plugs, adjusted the contacts in the distributor, cleaned the fuel pump filter, or whatever - and then listened closely, and... the magic was back!"

See ... weekend mechanics are riddled with expectation bias - in reality, they haven't got a clue as to how well their engines are running - they are relying on those ridiculously ineffective ears to tell them what's going on .

9 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

THAT, my friend is EXPECTATION BIAS!

 

Memory is a fickle thing, also. Most audiophiles can barely remember what they listened to 20 seconds ago to compare. That is why, when you go to an audiophile sales pitch, they tell you what to expect, play the piece, explain again, and play it again. That is how they use expectation bias to sell you something.

Guess what? You as a consumer are in control - or should be - you decide what to use to assess the quality of some playback device - or do you prefer to be led around by someone pulling on the chain hooked to the ring through your nose?

36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

And all the times I don't hear a change - or the SQ gets worse, what's the 'magic' in my brain that determines which way the switches flick? You don't get to see the years and years I've been fooling around, doing this sort of stuff, getting extremely frustrated at not finding answers - and shutting everything down for long periods of time, because I'm too pissed off with it all ...

Could have avoided all the frustration if you didn't start out with the assumption that it's all magic, Frank ;) 

38 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Guess what? You as a consumer are in control - or should be - you decide what to use to assess the quality of some playback device - or do you prefer to be led around by someone pulling on the chain hooked to the ring through your nose?

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/the_most_infamous_study_on_wine_tasting.html

47 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Could have avoided all the frustration if you didn't start out with the assumption that it's all magic, Frank ;) 

 

Classic example of confusing cause and effect, here ...

Normal audiophile: applies "magic" solutions to things; expects, "magic" results

Knowledgeable enthusiast: does the hard grind, jumps over all the hurdles, walks the thousand miles; and, experiences "magic" results

Your choice ...

34 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/the_most_infamous_study_on_wine_tasting.html

Obviously, these so-called experts had never tried an Australian red ... when I visited France it was quite eye, er, palate opening to see how much watery rubbish was masquerading as wine - very quickly learned to buy the absolutely cheapest wine on the list; because paying 10 times as much gave you almost no improvement in the pretend, alcoholic beverage ...

36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Obviously, these so-called experts had never tried an Australian red ... when I visited France it was quite eye, er, palate opening to see how much watery rubbish was masquerading as wine - very quickly learned to buy the absolutely cheapest wine on the list; because paying 10 times as much gave you almost no improvement in the pretend, alcoholic beverage ...

Maybe, just maybe, I wasn't actually "addressing the point" in that post, hmmm ...

THE point is, that one 'learns' how not to listen to something "being better" - rather, one is on the lookout for faults; the absence of any discernible flaws is the marker for it being better ... so in the wine example, you say to yourself, "How much does this remind me of vinegar, rather than what it's supposed to be". IME, this is extremely, extremely difficult for audiophiles to do ...

So, what's 'magic' like, with no nasty "expectation bias" getting between you and the sound - this, just posted, which also uses that terrible word, "magic", pretty well nails it, ,

Expectation bias cannot be denied, but would it be debated if most components didn't offer a marginal improvement (if at all) ? The reality is that audio systems are just layers of boxes that add distortion, and a change to one component is never going to be transformative.

7 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Expectation bias cannot be denied, but would it be debated if most components didn't offer a marginal improvement (if at all) ? The reality is that audio systems are just layers of boxes that add distortion, and a change to one component is never going to be transformative.

Yes, layers of boxes which add distortion - the goal is to minimise that distortion. And, a change to one component can be transformative, if, by so doing a bottleneck in the chain is removed - a single stone in a very long hose can severely restrict the flow of water; locate and remove that stone, and the liquid now gushes through ...

8 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Yes, layers of boxes which add distortion - the goal is to minimise that distortion. And, a change to one component can be transformative, if, by so doing a bottleneck in the chain is removed - a single stone in a very long hose can severely restrict the flow of water; locate and remove that stone, and the liquid now gushes through ...

Wishful thinking...