AQVOX audio grade switch

18 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

whatever power supplies, clocks, transmission cables and vibration control you employ on your modem/router, you need to have better specs at the next stage, your bridge. If not, the bridge will have a deleterious affect and deliver a ‘less sonorous’ file to your DAC. 

Yes that makes sense.

Even putting my modem/router on the stillpoints rack was jaw dropping. How can it be? The modem is so light and small.

What amazes me is the effect of DC cables. I do have the gold/silver mundorf.

I  recently swapped from a 1.5m Neotech copper to a .3m Ghent Gotham for my Lumin streamer, and it sounded like I upgraded the power supply or streamer. The Gotham is so much quieter.

Whether it was because of the shorter length or better wire, it always amazes me.

Regardless of whether or not switches make an improvement I think it's fair to say that the LTT video is really informative about pricing around pieces like this. For the actual parts/labor involved in the modification the price is abhorrent.

On 12/4/2022 at 4:16 PM, bfin3 said:

Regardless of whether or not switches make an improvement I think it's fair to say that the LTT video is really informative about pricing around pieces like this. For the actual parts/labor involved in the modification the price is abhorrent.

yes, specially if its like the aqvox switch which is really "pure snake oil" which does nothing for a very high price, i mean they are selling a 30$ switch for 800$ with some epoxy and some "crystals" and "illuminati sticker" in it xD atleast something like the uptone etherregen looks really well made and they are open to show what they really did on the pcb!!

aqvox isnt trying to hide the super technology that they developed, they just try to hide that they did NOTHING! 

On 12/4/2022 at 10:16 AM, bfin3 said:

Regardless of whether or not switches make an improvement I think it's fair to say that the LTT video is really informative about pricing around pieces like this. For the actual parts/labor involved in the modification the price is abhorrent.

I've been using a Gigafoil, and just added an etherstream2 switch.

There's no going back after that. It removes all of the harshness from streaming. I can listen to my stereo all night now with no listener fatigue.

Someone's cables can mask the harshness, but if you upgrade to very transparent cables, you can't get away with not having a switch.

The video was posted earlier in the thread (at 15 minute mark) couldn't more wrong in real world use with a high end setup.

2 hours ago, Ghoostknight said:

yes, specially if its like the aqvox switch which is really "pure snake oil" which does nothing for a very high price, i mean they are selling a 30$ switch for 800$ with some epoxy and some "crystals" and "illuminati sticker" in it xD atleast something like the uptone etherregen looks really well made and they are open to show what they really did on the pcb!!

 

I would agree the mark ups in high end audio are getting out of hand.

You have to be a seasoned audiophile to steer clear of this. The etherstream2 I use outperforms another switch that costs 5x more. 

8 hours ago, skyline said:

I would agree the mark ups in high end audio are getting out of hand.

thats one of the reasons why i like DIY in audio, for example making your own cables seems to save you quite a few bucks compared to similar ready made products with kinda very little effort, most high end audio stuff seems to be quite good profitwise for the company, like 50% profit or even more, i guess they just do that to either compensate for low volume sales or plain up try to cheat on the few people that believe in high end stuff

Some Chinese options:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804359629525.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.23.1817abedmG9f6N&algo_pvid=45355af5-bb64-4ee7-a941-67077e15c746&algo_exp_id=45355af5-bb64-4ee7-a941-67077e15c746-11&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"12000029558822634"}&pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!181.0!162.9!!!!!%40211bd8be16711802683841164d0749!12000029558822634!sea&curPageLogUid=j2zFThBnBpWe

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804779782098.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.15.1817abedmG9f6N&algo_pvid=45355af5-bb64-4ee7-a941-67077e15c746&algo_exp_id=45355af5-bb64-4ee7-a941-67077e15c746-7&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"12000031182376756"}&pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!376.82!308.99!!!!!%40211bd8be16711802683841164d0749!12000031182376756!sea&curPageLogUid=ufTEUyrJV5JK

Also, Paul Pang's units:

http://ppaproduct.blogspot.com/2015/07/audio-grade-switcher.html

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

This is gold, and I have experienced the same thing early on, say almost 10 years ago. My approach has been informed with what you say above with a slightly different slant:

 

1) When a network switch has a sound this indicates faulty equipment. Much of the very cheap consumer grade Ethernet is just that.

2) The network switch should not have an SQ. It should have a completely black background.

 

So, when a network has the ability to change the SQ that means it is adding a signal into the datasteam ie noise.

 

3) The goal of network optimization is to eliminate noise and transmit only the audio data.

4) Fiberoptic completely eliminates common mode noise

5) Modern Ethernet standards e.g 10Gbe+ minimize (essentially eliminate) differential and phase mode noise

 

If we want to discuss reducing injected ethernet noise, and eliminating upstream noise transmission the 10Gbe+ standards are the way to go because they are designed for this.

 

6) Ethernet noise is actually tested to be eliminated in these modern standards so equipment that doesn't test for this is non-compliant. This is called "stressed receiver testing"

 

Interestingly no so called "audiophile" network switch is compliant with 10Gbe despite this standard being available for over 20 years.

3 hours ago, audiobomber said:

Equally interesting, some audiophile gear, Melco, Uptone and SOtM, etc., drops the speed to 100Mbps, which is widely considered to be an asset.

 

I just added fiber optic to my system. In future, I won't even look at network gear that doesn't have a fiber port. 

Great topics and great points. 

I seriously never considered that audiophle switches should be looking at 10Gbe+ due to the engineering standards required, if nothing else. That's totally valid!

I'd say 99% of my Ethernet related sound issues are generated by the music server (Mac, Windows, Linux, etc...). For example, the Belkin, Apple approved, USB C to Ethernet adapters Apple pushes for MacBooks. The hardware sucks and Apple's recent software changes for how USB Ethernet works are showstoppers. This combination can alter the sound, and no good switch can recover, it can only prevent further damage. 

I now use a Thunderbolt to Ethernet adapter on my MacBook Pro (no built-in Ethernet port). I like the way the Thunderbolt protocol works, much better than USB. 

6 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

This is gold, and I have experienced the same thing early on, say almost 10 years ago. My approach has been informed with what you say above with a slightly different slant:

 

1) When a network switch has a sound this indicates faulty equipment. Much of the very cheap consumer grade Ethernet is just that.

2) The network switch should not have an SQ. It should have a completely black background.

 

So, when a network has the ability to change the SQ that means it is adding a signal into the datasteam ie noise.

 

3) The goal of network optimization is to eliminate noise and transmit only the audio data.

4) Fiberoptic completely eliminates common mode noise

5) Modern Ethernet standards e.g 10Gbe+ minimize (essentially eliminate) differential and phase mode noise

 

If we want to discuss reducing injected ethernet noise, and eliminating upstream noise transmission the 10Gbe+ standards are the way to go because they are designed for this.

 

6) Ethernet noise is actually tested to be eliminated in these modern standards so equipment that doesn't test for this is non-compliant. This is called "stressed receiver testing"

 

Interestingly no so called "audiophile" network switch is compliant with 10Gbe despite this standard being available for over 20 years.

Interesting take on this.  I agree that the network switch should not have an SQ, but unfortunately some or all of them do...I do not know which is the correct answer there.  As my playback is situated in my office I started running it from the available 10GBe pro switch until someone brought over a Melco during a visit.  Plugged the Melco+LPS in between the 10Gbe switch and the server (Antipodes Oladra) and the sound of internet streaming improved a little.  Tried several fancy ethernet cables and the sound changed a little bit again...tried optical between the 10GBe switch and the Melco and the sound got worse...even worse than the simple original setup without a fancy switch or cables, but still sounded very good I must say..it's not like the sound became horrible.  Tried the Melco with and without the LPS and definitely with LPS is preferred.

I like the notion of optical eliminating common mode noise with ethernet, and I've used optical before with an LDR preamp and optical USB DDC (cannot remember the brand...it was about 8 years ago...both those things quickly left my system), but if the "issue" is not common mode noise then optical will not really fix anything, especially if the process of converting optical to electrical downstream introduces noise again to the digital system.

Can't say I understand the root causes of internet streaming SQ changes with network gear but I don't really buy the "noise" argument either as it seems to be a convenient go-to that no-one really seems to understand but many seem happy to parrot (like me in the previous paragraph).  

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I now use a Thunderbolt to Ethernet adapter on my MacBook Pro (no built-in Ethernet port). I like the way the Thunderbolt protocol works, much better than USB. 

My understanding of Thunderbolt PCIe tunneling is that it should act like an external PCIe bus, so much better for an Ethernet adapter, that said I dont use my MBP to output audio, rather control the output from my HQPe server to various points in my house which could be wired to a Fitlet2 (or clearfog) or wireless to a NUC/etc. I have no comment on USB->Ethernet regarding SQ!! I do use a USB-C->Ethernet adapter for the purpose of initial configuration of equipment, and additionally as console adapters etc. 

Yeah I know the "theory" that 100Mbs Ethernet is "lower noise" but looking at this critically falls flat on its face. There is no question that common mode noise/EMI has been shown to go up as clock speed goes up. At the same time @PeterStwrote awhile ago about his work in underclocking a Xeon and I'm guessing he does this in the Phasure audio workstation. The concept of underclocking a higher speed chip to improve EMI is also valid and has been empirically shown. 

So actually, and I probably should write about this more widely, in my 100Gbe network, the final connection to my audio endpoint is 1Gbe and so this super low noise hardware is "underclocked". I think if there is any concern of generating noise at the endpoint, then designing something for 10Gbe and underclocking it to 1Gbe should be better (but let's see some actual measurements which no one shows). All that said, the 100Gbe ASIC serializes and deserializes the 100Gbe signal without generating additional noise (which would blow up the device's function).

53 minutes ago, acg said:

Can't say I understand the root causes of internet streaming SQ changes with network gear but I don't really buy the "noise" argument either as it seems to be a convenient go-to that no-one really seems to understand but many seem happy to parrot (like me in the previous paragraph).  

Given that this is the Objective-Fi subforum, you might think that the "noise" argument is parroting something that you don't understand, but really there's a tremendous amount that has been written about noise and there is alot of understanding. Modern networks just wouldn't work without understanding noise, nor would graviton detection https://www.quantamagazine.org/gravitons-revealed-in-the-noise-of-gravitational-waves-20200723/ nor particle detectors actually work. 

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'd say 99% of my Ethernet related sound issues are generated by the music server (Mac, Windows, Linux, etc...). For example, the Belkin, Apple approved, USB C to Ethernet adapters Apple pushes for MacBooks. The hardware sucks and Apple's recent software changes for how USB Ethernet works are showstoppers. This combination can alter the sound, and no good switch can recover, it can only prevent further damage.

This is where the "bits is bits" argument is correct - a good switch can recover the quality, because if there is some degree of waveform stabilisation, which in extreme cases can be achieved by buffering and regeneration, then absolutely nothing will be lost - the data going to the DAC is identical, and provided competent conversion, full SQ will be achieved.

If there is still degradation, then noise is getting through - in the words of your school teacher, the circuitry "needs to try harder", .

6 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

This is where the "bits is bits" argument is correct - a good switch can recover the quality, because if there is some degree of waveform stabilisation, which in extreme cases can be achieved by buffering and regeneration, then absolutely nothing will be lost - the data going to the DAC is identical, and provided competent conversion, full SQ will be achieved.

 

If there is still degradation, then noise is getting through - in the words of your school teacher, the circuitry "needs to try harder", .

No. 

14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No. 

Why?

29 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Given that this is the Objective-Fi subforum, you might think that the "noise" argument is parroting something that you don't understand, but really there's a tremendous amount that has been written about noise and there is alot of understanding. Modern networks just wouldn't work without understanding noise, nor would graviton detection https://www.quantamagazine.org/gravitons-revealed-in-the-noise-of-gravitational-waves-20200723/ nor particle detectors actually work. 

Calm down.  I never said I did not understand "noise".  The word is often used as an excuse for not understanding the problem.  What kinds of noise?  Sources?  Mechanisms of "infection"?  Lots of broad statements about noise but little actual detail. 

I made my earlier post a reply to yours about optical removing common mode noise in ethernet signals and 10Gbe ethernet noise levels.  If this proved true in the real world, as you posit, then my experience seems to provide a data point that neither removing common mode noise nor using 10GBe ethernet are necessarily the answer.

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Why?

A perfect switch only forwards the packets it receives. If it’s sent garbage, it must forward garbage, otherwise it’s editorializing the data. 

1 hour ago, acg said:

 

Calm down.  I never said I did not understand "noise".  The word is often used as an excuse for not understanding the problem.  What kinds of noise?  Sources?  Mechanisms of "infection"?  Lots of broad statements about noise but little actual detail. 

 

I made my earlier post a reply to yours about optical removing common mode noise in ethernet signals and 10Gbe ethernet noise levels.  If this proved true in the real world, as you posit, then my experience seems to provide a data point that neither removing common mode noise nor using 10GBe ethernet are necessarily the answer.

Its possible that your system prefers some noise. It is beyond the scope of this forum to specify mechanisms of noise. That said there are textbooks that discuss this. Its a physical fact that fiberoptic doesn't transmit common mode noise. The 10Gbe+ specifications place limits on differential mode noise and phase noise. Its "proven true" because the specifications require compliance testing and companies like Keysight and Tektronix (and others) make expensive hardware/software test systems that currently go up to 800GBE. The commonly known "eye pattern" places limits on the phase noise/jitter (vertical boundaries) and differential noise (horizontal boundaries) but the compliance testing also needs to demonstrate that the system rejects upstream jitter and voltage noise ... i.e. the system must reject upstream noise and make the signal better than it started out.

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

A perfect switch only forwards the packets it receives. If it’s sent garbage, it must forward garbage, otherwise it’s editorializing the data. 

Actually, the big improvement as of 10Gbe is that the switch needs to improve the signal. It needs to reject upstream jitter and voltage noise (stressed receiver test). Obviously if the packets/bits are degraded beyond limits they can't be recovered but such degradation can only occur with faulty/non-compliant hardware.

The big reason I've stressed the 10Gbe standard is that the 1Gbe standard did not require this behavior.

6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Actually, the big improvement as of 10Gbe is that the switch needs to improve the signal. It needs to reject upstream jitter and voltage noise (stressed receiver test). Obviously if the packets/bits are degraded beyond limits they can't be recovered but such degradation can only occur with faulty/non-compliant hardware.

I think we are talking about something different. I’m totally with you on your statements. The issues I’m talking about involve network audio, but I don’t believe they involve something fixable by a network device. 
 

This is a tough discussion because we don’t have a concrete example the problem, at least what I’m talking about, caused at the music server. I’ve heard it, but I can’t say, do XYZ and you’ll hear it. 
 

Would make for a great discussion in person with hardware to test!

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Actually, the big improvement as of 10Gbe is that the switch needs to improve the signal. It needs to reject upstream jitter and voltage noise (stressed receiver test). Obviously if the packets/bits are degraded beyond limits they can't be recovered but such degradation can only occur with faulty/non-compliant hardware.

 

The big reason I've stressed the 10Gbe standard is that the 1Gbe standard did not require this behavior.

This is the sort of waveform conditioning I speak of - I had a quick look around, but haven't seen anything which implies that the Apple device actually corrupts packet data, to the point of creating problems - if anyone can point me to some empirical or other data which implies an issue, I would appreciate it, .

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

This is the sort of waveform conditioning I speak of - I had a quick look around, but haven't seen anything which implies that the Apple device actually corrupts packet data, to the point of creating problems - if anyone can point me to some empirical or other data which implies an issue, I would appreciate it, .

If you want to pay for the empirical testing, the testing can be done at my place. It will take about 30 seconds for me to show the results that a deaf person could hear. 

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

A perfect switch only forwards the packets it receives. If it’s sent garbage, it must forward garbage, otherwise it’s editorializing the data. 

I don't see how that can be correct. Surely a high quality audio switch will reclock, filter and isolate the data stream from jitter, EMI and RFI. I agree that the data is not changed, the zeros and ones are present and correct, but there is non-audio noise riding along and messing up the sound. Otherwise, why would an audiophile switch or renderer improve the sound quality?

12 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

I don't see how that can be correct. Surely a high quality audio switch will reclock, filter and isolate the data stream from jitter, EMI and RFI. I agree that the data is not changed, the zeros and ones are present and correct, but there is non-audio noise riding along and messing up the sound. Otherwise, why would an audiophile switch or renderer improve the sound quality?

I think there are many different things going on here and I’m just talking about one that I have a lot of experience with. I think it’s very different from the main discussion, I think you’re addressing. 
 

I talked about it in this post-

https://audiophilestyle.com/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=66937&content_commentid=1219491