T+A components and Linux Support

This week we have been troubleshooting T+A components. The following is a summary of the known issues and workarounds for support on Linux based devices.

Amanero USB based T+A Components

This is all about what firmware is running on the Amanero USB interface.  Note that we do not get involved in the updating of the Amanero firmware in the context of the T+A gear. As shown in the T+A specifications (link included), the component is only specified to playback DSD 256 and DSD 512 via a Windows computer using the T+A driver. If the component does indeed use the Amanero USB interface, it is likely firmware updatable to allow DSD 256 and DSD 512 (native) via Linux streamers like ours.  For example Barrows uses Amanero firmware version 2006be11, to support DSD 256 and DSD 512, native via our streamers, and it works fine. There is a very long thread here on AudiophileStyle about the T+A DAC 8 DSD which shows how to update the Amanero firmware, and users on that thread may be able to help. Note that T+A may not support this update.

T+A MP 3100 spec:

https://www.ta-hifi.de/en/audiosystems/hv-series/mp-3100-hv-multi-source-sacd-player-2/

T+A DAC 8 DSD thread at audiophilestyle.com:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/27271-ta-dac-8-dsd/#comments

STM/Thesycon USB based T+A Components

What T+A can do is exchange the Amanero board with a STM/Thesycon board. Please contact them for pricing. The Thesycon USB driver would then work on Linux streamers like ours. 

Additional information for those familiar with coding on the Linux Kernel

If you stroll down to line 1903 you will see the code related to the various Amanero firmware supported on Linux.

If you stroll down to line 2192 you will see the code for the Thesycon based T+A hardware. As long as the component has a USB VID of 0x2ab6 it should just work.

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c?utf8=✓

Your best bet to avoid issues long term is get the unit with the Thesycon USB board or update your unit to the Thesycon board.

*updated by vortecjr on 2/18/2023 to fix errors 

Over a year ago, I did this Amanero USB update to my DAC8 DSD with some assistance from @OE333. A special cable is required of which I had to construct. If anyone decides to do this update and needs a cable, we can discuss borrowing my cable. PM me.

After the update, I could play up to native DSD512 using Linux server.

11 minutes ago, ericuco said:

Over a year ago, I did this Amanero USB update to my DAC8 DSD with some assistance from @OE333. A special cable is required of which I had to construct. If anyone decides to do this update and needs a cable, we can discuss borrowing my cable. PM me.

 

After the update, I could play up to native DSD512 using Linux server.

That is very nice of you.  

@vortecjr: thank you very much for your clarification about compatibility of Sonore products and T+A DACs.

10 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Additional information for those familiar with coding on the Linux Kernel

If you stroll down to line 1903 you will see the code related to the various Amanero firmware supported on Linux. The T+A DAC 200 has a USB VID and USB PID of 0x2ab6, 0x0004 and as you can see it's not listed in the Kernel. We could add it, but we know they do not ship with the compatible firmware that supports DSD.   

 

If you stroll down to line 2173 you will see the code for the Thesycon hardware. As long as the component has a USB VID of 0x152a it should just work. 

 

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c?utf8=✓

This is not exactly correct.

All T+A devices have a USB  VID of 0x2ab. T+A devices do not use the 0x152a VID.

DAC200 has a VID/PID of  0x2ab6:0x0020.

All current T+A models are equipped with the Thesycon USB interface and are fully supported by the current 5.x Linux kernel versions.

i.e. all current T+A models are fully Linux compatible and support native DSD from Linus based sources without any upgrade.

Older T+A models with Amanero USB interface

For native DSD support from Linux sources almost all older T+A devices with Amanero USB board can be upgraded to the Thesycon USB board. This upgrade is a plug and play upgrade - no soldering required. An upgrade kit will be available from the T+A webshop in short time. Further information can be obtained from T+A sevice dept. [ e-service (at) ta-hifi.com ].

DAC8DSD

An exception is the DAC8DSD. In this model the Amanero USB interface is soldered directly onto the main PCB and can not be exchanged against the Thesycon interface. But the USB interface of the DAC8DSD can be reprogrammed with an alternative Amanero firmware which supports native DSD512 from Linux based sources.

As @ericucoreported, a special programming cable may be required.

This is only true for DAC8DSD with firmware before V2.60. (Firmware version can be found on the Quality Control certificate of the DAC).

In DAC8DSD with firmware >= V2.60 the Amanero interface can directly be re-programmed using the ServiceMode of the DACDSD.

Details on the ServiceMode / Amanero reprogramming and the firmware update of the DAC8DSD can be found here: https://github.com/OE333/DAC8-Service-Tool  (--> see the "related docs" subfolder)

56 minutes ago, OE333 said:

@vortecjr: thank you very much for your clarification about compatibility of Sonore products and T+A DACs.

I'm happy to help, but just to be clear this really affects all Linux devices that T+A products connect to. In fact, the issues may be more so if the main line Kernel is not used in other products. Sonore products are frequently updated to take advantage of the latest information in the main line Kernel.   

On 2/16/2023 at 4:26 AM, OE333 said:

This is not exactly correct.

All T+A devices have a USB  VID of 0x2ab. T+A devices do not use the 0x152a VID.

DAC200 has a VID/PID of  0x2ab6:0x0020.

 

All current T+A models are equipped with the Thesycon USB interface and are fully supported by the current 5.x Linux kernel versions.

i.e. all current T+A models are fully Linux compatible and support native DSD from Linus based sources without any upgrade.

 

Older T+A models with Amanero USB interface

For native DSD support from Linux sources almost all older T+A devices with Amanero USB board can be upgraded to the Thesycon USB board. This upgrade is a plug and play upgrade - no soldering required. An upgrade kit will be available from the T+A webshop in short time. Further information can be obtained from T+A sevice dept. [ e-service (at) ta-hifi.com ].

 

DAC8DSD

An exception is the DAC8DSD. In this model the Amanero USB interface is soldered directly onto the main PCB and can not be exchanged against the Thesycon interface. But the USB interface of the DAC8DSD can be reprogrammed with an alternative Amanero firmware which supports native DSD512 from Linux based sources.

 

As @ericucoreported, a special programming cable may be required.

This is only true for DAC8DSD with firmware before V2.60. (Firmware version can be found on the Quality Control certificate of the DAC).

In DAC8DSD with firmware >= V2.60 the Amanero interface can directly be re-programmed using the ServiceMode of the DACDSD.

Details on the ServiceMode / Amanero reprogramming and the firmware update of the DAC8DSD can be found here: https://github.com/OE333/DAC8-Service-Tool  (--> see the "related docs" subfolder)

I appreciate the clarifications and will update the first post accordingly.

For those of you following along in the code

Instead of line 2173 for the Thesycon hardware line 2192 is utilized to properly support the Thesycon based T+A hardware. Looking at the code the only difference is the USB VID.

vs

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c?utf8=✓

@OE333 can let us know what USB hardware is utilized on these products?

0x2ab6:0x0001 - PDP3000HV DAC

0x2ab6:0x0002 - MP1000E, MP2000R, MP2500R, MP3100HV

0x2ab6:0x0003 - TA HD AUDIO V2

17 hours ago, vortecjr said:

@OE333 can let us know what USB hardware is utilized on these products?

0x2ab6:0x0001 - PDP3000HV DAC                                                               -> Amanero, can be upgraded to Thesycon

0x2ab6:0x0002 - MP1000E, MP2000R, MP2500R, MP3100HV                    -> Amanero, can be upgraded to Thesycon

0x2ab6:0x0003 - TA HD AUDIO V2                                                                -> Amanero, can be upgraded to Thesycon

In general: all PIDs < 0x0010 are Amanero, PIDs >=0x0010 are Thesycon.

Please note: Current production MP2000R, MP2500R, MP3100HV already have the Thesycon interface (with PIDs > 0x0010).

T+A will prepare detailed information about this and disclose it on their website.

I appreciate your assistance with this. 

Hi,

I have a T+A DAC200 connected to an OpticalRendu, and have been having dropout issues when using Roon. The DAC200 will randomly disconnect from OpticalRendu and stop the music playback. If I restart OpticalRendu it usually hangs after the sonicorbiter countdown reaches 1 constantly showing a red light, and on less occasions eventually goes green about a minute later, but the DAC200 often still won’t show up in sonicorbiter web settings.

I’ve noticed when I get dropouts and the DAC200 disconnects, the OpticalRendu gets hotter than normal. 
now the thing is, I’ve read everything above and although I’m usually very technically minded, have a physics degree… I am having a few health issues at the moment, hindering my metabolism somewhat and have no idea if any of the information above would be the reason for my issues.

can someone clarify for me if any of the above is applicable to my particular set up and problem please?

thank you 

The DAC200 is 100% compatible with all newer (i.e. all 5.x) Linux kernels and I don't know of any problems with Linux based bridge devices.

Please check the USB cable between OpticalRendu and DAC200 first. If your problems persist, please let me know.

18 hours ago, OE333 said:

The DAC200 is 100% compatible with all newer (i.e. all 5.x) Linux kernels and I don't know of any problems with Linux based bridge devices.

Please check the USB cable between OpticalRendu and DAC200 first. If your problems persist, please let me know.

Thanks for your reply and advice.

will do, it’s a “curious cables evolved” usb cable, very well constructed. It may take a while to have a proper check because I need to get a friend to pop in and assist as I’m disabled. But will do.
I’ve just ordered a new power supply for the OpticalRendu also.

Hi @OE333

I was trying to use RPi5 as NAA using RoPieee on DAC 200. While I'm able to stream DSD 512 from HQPlayer to RPi, the sound was not the same (worse) as if I use my Surface laptop with T+A bit perfect windows driver as NAA. In both cases I used another PC to run HQplayer to get DSD stream. I did notice though that T+A is not listed in the list of supported DSD native DACs on RoPieee website. Should I be using another Linux alternative for NAA or just get a miniPC with Windows, T+A driver and NAA endpoint? Thanks!

On 5/4/2024 at 10:07 AM, akosinskiy said:

Hi @OE333

I was trying to use RPi5 as NAA using RoPieee on DAC 200. While I'm able to stream DSD 512 from HQPlayer to RPi, the sound was not the same (worse) as if I use my Surface laptop with T+A bit perfect windows driver as NAA. In both cases I used another PC to run HQplayer to get DSD stream. I did notice though that T+A is not listed in the list of supported DSD native DACs on RoPieee website. Should I be using another Linux alternative for NAA or just get a miniPC with Windows, T+A driver and NAA endpoint? Thanks!

Any of our Rendu units with SO 2.9 should work as an NAA endpoint. I think you are going to love it and you can try it risk free.

On 5/4/2024 at 11:23 AM, vortecjr said:

On 5/4/2024 at 10:07 AM, akosinskiy said:

 

Any of our Rendu units with SO 2.9 should work as an NAA endpoint. I think you are going to love it and you can try it risk free. 

Thanks. I'm still not convenced from logical perspective why streamer would be sounding different one from another if DAC has proper USB implementation which to my understanding DAC 200 does. Also I would like to try DSD 1024 in future... So I'm trying to get into weeds on the difference I heard.

Our units are small, but we do not make a fruit or a desert;) The concept of the fruit/desert is to make it as cheap as possible for mass prodcution. The concept of a Rendu is make it as clean as possible regardless of cost and production size. 

Again try it risk free and judge it for yourself. You can also read some reviews from customers in this thread:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/32094-sonore-signature-rendu-se-deluxe/?do=findComment&comment=1278838

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/32094-sonore-signature-rendu-se-deluxe/?do=findComment&comment=1278041

I would consider DSD 1024 experimental. Playback at those rates depends on the streamer's OS, the DAC's USB interface/firmware, the capabilities of the server's hardware/software, and the network. Some have tried and it works though. In this regard I'm willing to start a dedicated thread for discussion purposes.         

2 hours ago, akosinskiy said:

Hi @OE333

I was trying to use RPi5 as NAA using RoPieee on DAC 200. While I'm able to stream DSD 512 from HQPlayer to RPi, the sound was not the same (worse) as if I use my Surface laptop with T+A bit perfect windows driver as NAA. In both cases I used another PC to run HQplayer to get DSD stream. I did notice though that T+A is not listed in the list of supported DSD native DACs on RoPieee website. Should I be using another Linux alternative for NAA or just get a miniPC with Windows, T+A driver and NAA endpoint? Thanks!

DAC200 is fully supported by Linux with kernel version 5.0 or higher. Current RoPiee seems to use a 6.x kernel, so there should be no problems related to the Linux OS.

I have always had problems with sound quality when using a RPi. This is why T+A does not use RPi for its NAA implementation in SDV3100HV.

On 5/4/2024 at 12:33 PM, OE333 said:

DAC200 is fully supported by Linux with kernel version 5.0 or higher. Current RoPiee seems to use a 6.x kernel, so there should be no problems related to the Linux OS.

I was trying to run NAA OS on the same laptop. HQP DSD rendering is running on a separate Linux box. Couple of observations:

- DSD 256 works fine on both Windows and Linux

- DSD 512 works fine on Windows but gets choppy on Linux. I tried both wired and wireless connections, no difference

- I slightly preferred sound on Windows but that could be my imagination

It feels to me that Windows bit perfect driver at least helps to avoid dropouts. Is there any theoretical explanation (for example driver) that on the same hardware Windows would produce better sound? Thanks!

2 hours ago, akosinskiy said:

gets choppy on Linux

Try to set on Linux the cpu behavior to Performance … assuming the issue is with HQPlayer on Linux, not NAA

4 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

Try to set on Linux the cpu behavior to Performance … assuming the issue is with HQPlayer on Linux, not NAA

The issue is with NAA. As I mentioned the setup works if I run NAA on Windows. HQP doesn't even break a sweat.