Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

13 hours ago, bobfa said:

I was only using the Stylus player for a few days.  I went right to a quick A/B with Roon and stayed there.  

Hello Bobfa,

i did the same. the conclusion, which operating System is the best is allways connected to the Hardware you use. I liked the way roon did his Job. for me euphony core and roon was the best sounding way, but...

what i really dont´t like is the structure of roon. i want to look at the Folders (sometimes). Thats not possible. roon had a perfect implementation of qobuz, which i use for Streaming. If i compare that Point in euphony... omg, ist not really not good. perfect in this Point is volumio, roon and daphile.

at the Moment i am comparing Euphony and Volumio. 51% Euphony and 49% Volumio at the Moment. Roon is out becouse of the Price and the missing Folder structure. for the roon-Price i can buy a reference-clock... and imho i have a better benefit for the Money...

regards

sunny

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

So you are comparing the Audiolinux out of the box experience with the Euphony out of the box experience?

That is part of it.  Right now I have the Roon Server fixed (Euphony) and on the NUC endpoint I am testing between AL RAM and Euphony.  (This test is a problem right now due to a Euphony bug).  I have played with Euphony Sytlus on the Endpoint vs Roon OneBox on the NUC.  I am not ready to fully comment on that.  Lots of permutations.

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

Lots of permutations

That's my point. Audiolinux is highly tunabable with dozens of knobs and switches yielding many combinations and permutations with awful to gorgeous SQ.

As the code base is the same, Euphony is tuned to one instance of those combinations and permutations. This out of the box configuration is one that you and your friends enjoy. That's cool.

Nevertheless, I would argue that there exists a configuration of Audiolinux that is equal to or exceeds the SQ of Euphony. It is just that you haven't found that configuration yet.

13 hours ago, ArthurPower said:

I think Euphony is about 80% of the SQ improvement. We have never recommended that anyone use Euphony on a two computer based playback system, but some customers just like the idea and implemented it that way in their setup. When you're streaming over a network there are a lot more variables to consider. From cabling, the router, the power supply for the router, and the computer that is streaming the audio. So the OS on the streaming server can make a difference, but I think you need to consider all the pro's and con's of having a two computer based playback system. Any Linux distro on the server is going to be better then windows.

Thanks Arthur,

I understand that Euphony was developed as a server OS so I get the point about you not intending it for dual computer use.

But the counter argument is that Roon is intended to perform at an optimal level with server and playing duties split across two bits of hardware.

So unless I find that Euphony as a standalone server/player is better than two Audiolinux NUCs doing separate server / player functions then I need to pay for two Euphony licences to really compare like for like.

A Euphony server sending to an AL endpoint seems counter intuitive. As does an AL server sending to a Euphony endpoint.

Cheers,

Alan

Can Euphony/Stylus be configured as an MPD/UPNP renderer?

14 hours ago, ArthurPower said:

I think Euphony is about 80% of the SQ improvement. We have never recommended that anyone use Euphony on a two computer based playback system, but some customers just like the idea and implemented it that way in their setup. When you're streaming over a network there are a lot more variables to consider. From cabling, the router, the power supply for the router, and the computer that is streaming the audio. So the OS on the streaming server can make a difference, but I think you need to consider all the pro's and con's of having a two computer based playback system. Any Linux distro on the server is going to be better then windows.

Sorry to be blunt and this is not an attack, but this type of response from a commercial party worries me a bit since it seems to ‘down play’ that what many have found to be true in at least setups not using Euphony: the distributed setup sounds better. They don’t ‘just like the idea’. You’re making counter arguments to not use/be careful of this type of setup instead of constructively entertaining the idea that it might actually be or could be better. Perhaps you’ve tested it, I don’t know since you don’t mention this.

Also, most of us here have a streaming setup anyway since we use Tidal, Quobuz etc.

Perhaps we here are not your average customer  Of course whether or not you’d like to cater to our needs is up to you.

14 hours ago, bobfa said:

I really want others to try!

At least I will, once they’ve squashed the Roon bug and I’m used more to my system than I am today (have been making changes lateley).

1 hour ago, Dutch said:

 

At least I will, once they’ve squashed the Roon bug and I’m used more to my system than I am today (have been making changes lateley).

I agree to hold on testing split run normal systems until they fix that.  I am heads down on some work before some travel and I cannot get the testing I want to do into my workflow.  I am also waiting for the update so I can A/B test single box NUC better.  As @lmitche says AL is a tweak away????  

I did not give the single box solution enough of a test.  It can be done with a USB boot of the trial, i think.  I have to move power supply and external drive to the main system.  MAN this is FUN!  REALLY!  I should get another NUC!

The questions I am asking myself is a single box NUC Euphony system as good or better than a dual box Euphony Roon system?  How does single box Roon sound?  I also really need to give the Stylus software a better chance.

Now back to editing spreadsheets...

Thank you @ArthurPower! I guess I/we will have to ‘validate’ your findings through empirical research, which in this case means nothing more than simply listening to a dual vs single box setup running Euphony 

What type of SSD would you guys recommend for my NUC7i7DNBE to use in a single computer setup with Euphony OS? Something in the 1TB range? TIA

9 minutes ago, kravi4ka said:

What type of SSD would you guys recommend for my NUC7i7DNBE to use in a single computer setup with Euphony OS? Something in the 1TB range? TIA

I don't understand in matter of sq, why to use a ssd?  Internal harddrive (hdd, ssd) with internal power suppy and connected to sata is a no-go also. If you spend so much money for a nuc7i7... Spend a bit more for external hdd and seperate power supply. You will never reach the top of what is possible, if you connect it to the internal heaters.

Kind regards

Sunny

11 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Arthur, why not offer a Roon Distributed Bundle of 2 licenses for the same price, so people don't have to choose. You can strip Sylus out of that bundle to justify the lower cost. That way, those who want to use a single server approach can continue to do so, AND you welcome the distributed folks into your ecosystem. Forcing the latter to buy 2 licenses just turns people off.

 

I know I want to try your solution, but my HW topology is already honed to be distributed, which currently means 2 licenses for $600. 

@ArthurPower

+1 on this.

Great suggestion Rajiv.

12 minutes ago, sunny_time_99 said:

I don't understand in matter of sq, why to use a ssd?  Internal harddrive (hdd, ssd) with internal power suppy and connected to sata is a no-go also. If you spend so much money for a nuc7i7... Spend a bit more for external hdd and seperate power supply. You will never reach the top of what is possible, if you connect it to the internal heaters.

 

Kind regards

 

Sunny

Thanks, indeed I was being lazy, hoping that it is not so bad but I guess I will have to do it... You mean and external USB hard drive with separate PSU, right? Anything that you might recommend, will be appreciated?

You can see what I used in my Server build thread:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55681-from-0-to-xeonalroon-server-in-2-days/?tab=comments#comment-928961

I have still want to test with using my NAS.  

4 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

I don't understand in matter of sq, why to use a ssd?  Internal harddrive (hdd, ssd) with internal power suppy and connected to sata is a no-go also. If you spend so much money for a nuc7i7... Spend a bit more for external hdd and seperate power supply. You will never reach the top of what is possible, if you connect it to the internal heaters.

 

Kind regards

 

Sunny

I think an external LPS supplying the SSD that is running as a SATA would work just as well. Though a separate external disc can be cheaper (in terms of storage size to $) However the Euphony is best run via SATA, but not connected externally via USB. You can confirm with Arthur if this is true. 

5 hours ago, kravi4ka said:

What type of SSD would you guys recommend for my NUC7i7DNBE to use in a single computer setup with Euphony OS? Something in the 1TB range? TIA

I use Samsung SATA 2.5" Evo 860 1 TB, You don't really need. TB to run the OS, I think min 8 GB. For running stylus with music stored in the SSD itself, which was my plan, I use 1TB, so I can store lots of files. However  it will still run out of space eventually. So end up using an external HDD  connected via USB. I use "ECache." which means the entire track or even album is loaded into "Euphony ECache drive"(I think a specific folder in Euphony OS) of the SSD. So there is really not much sonic difference, but when I was using a 4G RAM MacBook via external boot, there are signal loss with ECache with M-ch files or large files. If you don't use ECache the sound suffers. I don't know how Ecache works but when you load the music onto the playlist on Stylus, it stays there and can continue to play after I disconnect the external drive, at times multiple tracks. Strange thing is it may still play after switching off and on euphony.  Perhaps it gets erased after the Ecache becomes full ?  Maybe Arthur can explain that.  I am not sure if this Ecache also works with network files. 

10 hours ago, Holzohr said:

 

It is possible to install the trial on hd/ssd. I did it with booting an Ubuntu USB stick and the tool/program Disks. Before you must unzip the euphony image and moving it to a second USB stick.

 

At the moment I have Euphony installed on an Optane 32GB SSD. Euphony replaced a Windows Server 2019 core installation with Fidelizer and AO. All I can say is I am not in the mood to change to Windows again.

 

Some pics:

Is this Optane Drive really that good? 

11 hours ago, bobfa said:

I agree to hold on testing split run normal systems until they fix that.  I am heads down on some work before some travel and I cannot get the testing I want to do into my workflow.  I am also waiting for the update so I can A/B test single box NUC better.  As @lmitche says AL is a tweak away????  

 

I did not give the single box solution enough of a test.  It can be done with a USB boot of the trial, i think.  I have to move power supply and external drive to the main system.  MAN this is FUN!  REALLY!  I should get another NUC!

 

The questions I am asking myself is a single box NUC Euphony system as good or better than a dual box Euphony Roon system?  How does single box Roon sound?  I also really need to give the Stylus software a better chance.

 

Now back to editing spreadsheets...

It won’t be fair comparison by using USB boot instead of internal SSD drive as it is designed for.  I can’t answer your question of dual box vs 1 box, as i only have single box setup and i don’t do roon/nas etc.. 

from your blog of the servers spec, it is hard to get fair testing as you have HDPlex running roon vs NUC with the stylus/euphony. I cannot find your LPS for the NUC. Assuming the HDPlex is superior (less noise, better PS), then roon has that advantage. Also did u run Ecache? That works best with an external drive where the music is. 

4 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

It won’t be fair comparison by using USB boot instead of internal SSD drive as it is designed for.  I can’t answer your question of dual box vs 1 box, as i only have single box setup and i don’t do roon/nas etc.. 

from your blog of the servers spec, it is hard to get fair testing as you have HDPlex running roon vs NUC with the stylus/euphony. I cannot find your LPS for the NUC. Assuming the HDPlex is superior (less noise, better PS), then roon has that advantage. Also did u run Ecache? That works best with an external drive where the music is. 

I think I am not explaining myself well.  I take the HDPLEX and the drive up to the NUC hook it all up.  I do not see Ecache in the menus 100% buffer I see.  There is an internal SSD in the NUC it is running Euphony and Roon endpoint.  I can switch.

I have to spend some time on this test.

I have bounced back and forth a couple of times and The Dual box Roon won by quite a bit.

NOTE that the NUC endpoint is normally run with a Uptone JS-2

On 3/22/2019 at 9:28 AM, bobfa said:

Yes I had 100% buffer and I tested with both of my machines With Stylus directly hooked to the DAC (I expected the Xeon to not do as well with USB out and from basic testing I did my NUC was better)

 

I use a split system, server and endpoint.  Currently the OS on both is Euphony.  Euphony OS has the setup to run Roon Server instead of Stylus.  (NOTE you still have to pay for Roon Server).  My music is on a USB 3.0 drive attached to the server.  Look at my "From 0 to " threads to see the server and endpoint builds I did. 

 

My endpoint is also running Euphony OS and Roon Bridge.  (NOTE!!! There is a bug in the current release of Euphony that makes this system not work right.  The OS does not start Roon Bridge properly. I have a preliminary fix on my endpoint)

 

I have been writing about the listening tests on the Linux Shootout thread I created.  As of now Roon sounds better than Stylus to me.

Bob,

May I know your preliminary method to fix that Roon bridge bug?

Thanks

Arthor: when will the update to squash this bug be available? I'm keen to have euphony to act as a Roon bridge!

THanks

15 hours ago, Holzohr said:

 

It is possible to install the trial on hd/ssd. I did it with booting an Ubuntu USB stick and the tool/program Disks. Before you must unzip the euphony image and moving it to a second USB stick.

 

At the moment I have Euphony installed on an Optane 32GB SSD. Euphony replaced a Windows Server 2019 core installation with Fidelizer and AO. All I can say is I am not in the mood to change to Windows again.

 

Some pics:

Thanks!  If you don't mind a quick question - - what playback software are you using ?