No Love for Squeezelite from the Industry

Using highly tweaked Win 10 low-powered CPU machine with LPSU as the endpoint, and Roon server on NUC7i5BNH, out of curiosity I tried comparing Roon Bridge vs SqueezeLite recently.  SqueezeLite needs to run independently without LMS. The difference in SQ is not small - SqueezeLite is the winner.  Unfortunately from Roon, SqueezeLite is limited to 192k only.   This is not SqueezeLite limitation.

To get the best from SqueezeLite, use LMS instead.  Yes, the GUI is ancient, but for local playback not really an issue for me.  Material Skin plugin allows setups to be done via tablet, like selecting DAC and entering renderer's parameters, so LMS can run headless.  I don't use LMS PlugIns for streaming but BubbleUPnP, hence need to install WhiteBear UPnP Plugin for LMS and also BubbleUPnP Server on Win 10 endpoint machine, making SqueezeLite an OpenHome renderer.  Streaming data fetching is done by BubbleUPnP Server, not the tablet app.  TIDAL streaming SQ (only TIDAL is available in my country) is so much better compared to LMS Local TIDAL PlugIn and no issues with TIDAL HiRes support up to 192k.

I don't have Roon account, tried many times, but never like its sound.  I have tried many other software, paid and free.  If LMS is setup correctly (my preference = Win 10 and LMS x64 version, not Linux), the SQ is amazing and tonality correct.  Remember this is free and open source software.  SqueezeLite renderer is fully C/C++ (compiled .EXE) while others in LMS were written in Perl and still in Perl.  WDM-KS (kernel streaming) output is supported.  Using WDM-KS as SqueezeLite output gives the best sound.  KS is not limited to 384k like other paid software running under Windows.

Unlike UPnP-based software, LMS + SqueezeLite SQ is not controller-app dependent.  Can create playlist, play, and quit the tablet app.

15 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Do you see any advantages of using it over UPnP?

That is the salient question.

I am very happy with BubbleUPnP and MinimServer. This allows me to control my sMS-200, PlayPoint, Pi and Chromecast audio streamers. I know the SOtM supports Squeeze via LMS, I don't think the others do.

I know that Squeezelite sounds better than RAAT, because I've heard the difference, but I'm not aware of any sonic advantage over UPnP. Why would I need Squeezelite?

13 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

That is the salient question.

 

I am very happy with BubbleUPnP and MinimServer. This allows me to control my sMS-200, PlayPoint, Pi and Chromecast audio streamers. I know the SOtM supports Squeeze via LMS, I don't think the others do.

 

I know that Squeezelite sounds better than RAAT, because I've heard the difference, but I'm not aware of any sonic advantage over UPnP. Why would I need Squeezelite?

I'm with you on this. As an audiophile I'm always looking for something better, so I keep asking is Squeezelite better. I hope to read something about this from people who use it all the time. 

38 minutes ago, Anwar said:

Using highly tweaked Win 10 low-powered CPU machine with LPSU as the endpoint, and Roon server on NUC7i5BNH, out of curiosity I tried comparing Roon Bridge vs SqueezeLite recently.  SqueezeLite needs to run independently without LMS. The difference in SQ is not small - SqueezeLite is the winner.  Unfortunately from Roon, SqueezeLite is limited to 192k only.   This is not SqueezeLite limitation.

 

To get the best from SqueezeLite, use LMS instead.  Yes, the GUI is ancient, but for local playback not really an issue for me.  Material Skin plugin allows setups to be done via tablet, like selecting DAC and entering renderer's parameters, so LMS can run headless.  I don't use LMS PlugIns for streaming but BubbleUPnP, hence need to install WhiteBear UPnP Plugin for LMS and also BubbleUPnP Server on Win 10 endpoint machine, making SqueezeLite an OpenHome renderer.  Streaming data fetching is done by BubbleUPnP Server, not the tablet app.  TIDAL streaming SQ (only TIDAL is available in my country) is so much better compared to LMS Local TIDAL PlugIn and no issues with TIDAL HiRes support up to 192k.

 

I don't have Roon account, tried many times, but never like its sound.  I have tried many other software, paid and free.  If LMS is setup correctly (my preference = Win 10 and LMS x64 version, not Linux), the SQ is amazing and tonality correct.  Remember this is free and open source software.  SqueezeLite renderer is fully C/C++ (compiled .EXE) while others in LMS were written in Perl and still in Perl.  WDM-KS (kernel streaming) output is supported.  Using WDM-KS as SqueezeLite output gives the best sound.  KS is not limited to 384k like other paid software running under Windows.

 

Unlike UPnP-based software, LMS + SqueezeLite SQ is not controller-app dependent.  Can create playlist, play, and quit the tablet app.

Thanks for the details @Anwar

It seems you've turned your Squeeze situation into UPnP/OpenHome. Why not just use UPnP / OpenHome without SqueezeLite? I'm curious to learn more. 

39 minutes ago, Anwar said:

 

You are welcome, Chris.  After a few years of experimenting with paid and free software, I find SqueezeLite renderer very special.  My method of evaluating correctness of the sound is comparing CD/SACD media playback using built-in DAC of the player (mine is Marantz SA-10) vs using LMS playing local ripped CD/SACD files into the same player's USB DAC input.  SqueezeLite has the correct tonality & voicing whereas some of the software I have purchased sound different.

For local files playback, LMS tablet app is used.

It's wonderful you've found a great solution. Thanks for the info.

My introduction to streaming was via the SB Touch.  After lots of cursing and messing about, I now run LMS on my QNAP NAS (7 yrs old) and use iPeng on my iPad/iPhone and stream to my Touch and WiiM player and it works great.

I find Ravenna and other protocols interesting but until it can be done without buying a bunch of equipment, I am not overly interested.

6 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I know that Squeezelite sounds better than RAAT, because I've heard the difference, but I'm not aware of any sonic advantage over UPnP. Why would I need Squeezelite?

For me Squeezelite not  only sounds better than RAAT but also sounds better then UPnP....keep in mind that I only used BubbleUPnp, so I am not sure if Minumserver improves the sound. Also Squeezelite over the long term 4-5 months testing was more robust in terms of connection. 

I use Squeezelite on a self-made endpoint using Tinycore linux [like piCoreplayer] except mine only consists of the core linux kernel and squeezelite [about 20MB]. I remastered it to an .iso file so I can easily flash it to any SD card in case I need more Squeezelite endpoints, I call my player OPAL. Its 100% plug and play, all I do after flashing is set the name and connect it to wifi, after that its just an appliance that I can plug in anywhere in the home and it connects to LMS or Roon [if I use it] 100% without fail or any further steps. For me its the perfect endpoint in terms of sound, robustness, and fulfilling a single purpose.

I also created a version to play with Sox settings via Archamigo's blog to simulate other hardware etc. In this video I am changing the Sox filters for the RME Dac on the fly. BTW, this is the Material Skin GUI for LMS [which is built in now ie no longer a plugin]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm with you on this. As an audiophile I'm always looking for something better, so I keep asking is Squeezelite better. I hope to read something about this from people who use it all the time. 

You could always just try Squeezelite for yourself and answer your question with first hand experience. piCorePlayer is free if you have a Raspberrypi on hand. 

Squeezelite has been around for nearly 20 years, with a little searching it should  be easy to find enough testimonials to satisfy your curiosity one way or the other.

26 minutes ago, Ozeki said:

 

You could always just try Squeezelite for yourself and answer your question with first hand experience. piCorePlayer is free if you have a Raspberrypi on hand. 

 

Squeezelite has been around for nearly 20 years, with a little searching it should  be easy to find enough testimonials to satisfy your curiosity one way or the other.

I used it waaaaay back in the day with Squeezebox hardware, then used it as part of a Sonore Rendu. Now, I see no use for it unless I want to get into DIY mode for a bit. 
 

The original post you made was about “the industry” which I assume means manufacturers. That’s why I focused my posts on that. If the benefits outweigh the costs, then it would be supported by the industry for sure. So far I just read about people creating DIY solutions with it because they can, not because it’s better than other options. 
 

For every positive testimonial I’m sure I can find a negative testimonial. It’s like court cases. That’s why I asked you about the benefits. So far I haven’t really seen why there are benefits for “the industry” to support it. 
 

Some say it sounds better than RAAT and UPnP. That’s something. What are the other benefits that I could bring to the table when I talk to manufacturers?

39 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Some say it sounds better than RAAT and UPnP. That’s something. What are the other benefits that I could bring to the table when I talk to manufacturers?

Perhaps being able to increase the chance of a purchase by a consumer who currently uses and prefers Squeezelite as an end-point.

For example, I'm in the market for a network player right now for my livingroom system, I could continue to use my Raspberrypi but I just want something of equal or better sound quality and is aesthetically pleasing ie high WAF factor. But having used all-of-the-above as endpoints, I prefer the sound of Squeezelite. Therefore I have a strong preference for any network player that uses it.....

3 minutes ago, Ozeki said:

 

Perhaps being able to increase the chance of a purchase by a consumer who currently uses and prefers Squeezelite as an end-point.

 

For example, I'm in the market for a network player right now for my livingroom system, I could continue to use my Raspberrypi but I just want something of equal or better sound quality and is aesthetically pleasing ie high WAF factor. But having used all-of-the-above as endpoints, I prefer the sound of Squeezelite. Therefore I have a strong preference for any network player that uses it.....

Understood. Thank you. 

Basically, any manufacturer owes it to themselves to do as most any Audiophile would do....that is try everything they can get their hands on and adopt what sounds best.  Therefore they should at the very least test their product streaming to Squeezelite as an endpoint and compare it to the sound of other endpoints ie UPnp, DLNA, Airplay, etc. Let their own ears decide what protocol shows their product in the best light. Squeezelite is free, the code is free, and since their products already connect to the network and uses TCP to receive data the bases of what Squeezelite uses is already there....plus the code they need to use to enable streaming to Squeezelite is available too, so no need to invent anything.

21 minutes ago, Ozeki said:

Basically, any manufacturer owes it to themselves to do as most any Audiophile would do....that is try everything they can get their hands on and adopt what sounds best.  Therefore they should at the very least test their product streaming to Squeezelite as an endpoint and compare it to the sound of other endpoints ie UPnp, DLNA, Airplay, etc. Let their own ears decide what protocol shows their product in the best light. Squeezelite is free, the code is free, and since their products already connect to the network and uses TCP to receive data the bases of what Squeezelite uses is already there....plus the code they need to use to enable streaming to Squeezelite is available too, so no need to invent anything.

You should lobby ConversDigital and StreamUnlimited to implement this. Those two cover a large swath of what manufacturers use. 

31 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You should lobby ConversDigital and StreamUnlimited to implement this. Those two cover a large swath of what manufacturers use.

Now that I'm retired and have time, I'd be glad too....could you point me in the right direction?

I've been at this for a long time....dating back to when Winamp and Foobar2000 were the only choices we had with Windows XP, using Otachan's plugin for Foobar.  Pre 2K.

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You should lobby ConversDigital and StreamUnlimited to implement this. Those two cover a large swath of what manufacturers use. 

The ARM Cortex that StreamUnlimited uses on the boards they offer could have Squeezelite loaded, but I don’t think the ASIC ConversDigital uses would be able to. Currently I think Squeezelite code really needs to run under some OS. Unless some developer wants to recreate the whole thing in code for bare metal implementation. 

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

I think Squeezelite code really needs to run under some OS.

Yes Squeezelite is a program that needs an OS to run on....it was made to run in Linux, however there are ports to Android, Mac and Windows.  Either way Squeezelite itself can not be loaded onto a board or hard drive without a supporting operating system.

With that said, Linux is the go-to single purpose OS for just about everything....ie routers, smart TV's, and just about everything you might use around the home. Linux is also the go-to OS for most if not all network players.

Use cases would include streaming to an existing Squeezelite endpoint. To do this they don't need to load it into their software stack, they only need to add lines in their own software to 'talk too' Squeezelite over the existing Internet Protocol [the protocol that allows their gear to connect to a home network] using TCP. Again the code for this is available for free and is "Open Source" so not only can they use it freely but they can change and modify it as they see fit.

The above use-case is what I am wanting some brand to include. That way they can continue to use their own GUI and keep full control over their brand. At the end of the day their product will just show another end-point as the output, much like Roon shows their own RAAT endpoint or Squeezelite or what every else they support streaming too.

Otherwise they could add Squeezelite to their software. This is something that they probably would not want to do as it would essentially make their product an endpoint for Logitech Media Server.  This is the use-case for RoonReady products for example....people can use Roon to stream music to Brand-X's network player. So they load Roon's RAAT software onto their own product to make their product an endpoint for Roon. This in itself tells, me that their OS is Linux because Roon is only made to work in Linux.

So the only way Brand-X will actually have to load Squeezelite or even use it might be for either testing [listening to what it sounds like] -or- producing their own Hardware end-point specifically made for their product.

1 hour ago, Ozeki said:

Again the code for this is available for free and is "Open Source" so not only can they use it freely but they can change and modify it as they see fit.

Ain't that pretty much like where the rubber meets the road or something like that?

https://www.musicpd.org/commercial.html

Granted it's actually Music Player Daemon (GPL-2.0 license) rather than the LMS/Squeezelite (GPLv2 / GPLv3 license respectively) combo, though plenty of manufacturers didn't feel all that compelled to play the by rules unless and until the developer really tried to do something.

For instance, IMHO it would be (mighty) interesting to ask @kennyb123 a question like this. Is it realistic to expect that Antipodes would share their modified source code by any chance?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pggb-offline-remastering.958100/page-18#post-18014456

Quote

Not true, as I understand it. They advanced the version of Squeezelite with AMS 5. Previously it was an old version that was still compatible with C-3PO.

Not sure from which repo you are pulling Squeezelite, but it could be that the enhancements that enabled 16FS playback without C-3PO (and also up to DSD512 payback) were also merged into the version you pulled down. That’s how things are meant to go with open source.

I checked the latest commits available on GitHub but not sure if there were anything related to 16FS playback

https://github.com/marcoc1712/squeezelite-R2/commits/Release/

39 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Ain't that pretty much like where the rubber meets the road or something like that?

Here is the Squeezelite licence....its all free, Free to use it, change it, redistribute etc. etc. etc.

Squeezelite - lightweight headless squeezebox emulator

(c) Adrian Smith 2012-2015, [email protected]
    Ralph Irving 2015-2024, [email protected]

Released under GPLv3 license:

This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version.

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
GNU General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
along with this program. If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.

Additional permission under GNU GPL version 3 section 7

If you modify this program, or any covered work, by linking or
combining it with OpenSSL (or a modified version of that library),
containing parts covered by the terms of The OpenSSL Project, the
licensors of this program grant you additional permission to convey
the resulting work.  {Corresponding source for a non-source form of
such a combination shall include the source code for the parts of
OpenSSL used as well as that of the covered work.}

Well, I really didn't know that we've gotta spell it out even if we're posting a link

https://www.musicpd.org/commercial.html

Quote

It is allowed to sell commercial products with MPD, and with the source code being available, you can tailor it to your needs. But you must obey the GPL.

The most important part is: you must provide the source code of all GPL components in your product.

Factchecking FTW

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WhatDoesWrittenOfferValid

Quote

If you commercially distribute binaries not accompanied with source code, the GPL says you must provide a written offer to distribute the source code later. When users non-commercially redistribute the binaries they received from you, they must pass along a copy of this written offer. This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written offer.

That's exactly why I would even talk about sharing the source code by "borrowing" Antipodes as an example in the first place, at least "quite a few" manufacturers didn't wanna play ball until the developer of MPD sorta "reminded" them the whole point of GPL back then.

(Obviously it's much closer to stuff like "code of conduct" or "rules of engagement" etc. since none of those developers would actually talk to any lawyers.)

If they weren't willing to provide the source code as I mentioned above, personally I don't see any differences between violators of GPL and "freeloaders" IMHO.

Copied from the SOtM sMS-200 Eunhasu operating system. What app would I need on my phone to interface with this?

Logitech Media Server version : 8.2.0

SqueezeLite version : 1.9.8.1307

4 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

Copied from the SOtM sMS-200 Eunhasu operating system. What app would I need on my phone to interface with this?

https://f-droid.org/packages/com.craigd.lmsmaterial.app/

Version 0.6.3 (603) suggested Added on Aug 15, 2024

Download APK 2.3 MiB PGP Signature | Build Log

I'd like to know why Logitech shut down their LMS/Squeezelite-based hardware products. People loved them.

I am guessing it's due to tech support costs. The Squeezebox cost $300 I recall. But despite having a computer science degree and working in the web/tech industry, I had to call up their support people with a networking problem I had.

ChatGPT answer removed. I can’t condone ripping off other people’s work. 

I just asked the ChatGPT to cite its sources. It said was a based upon a combination of historical knowledge of the tech industry and decisions Logitech made at the time.

But more interesting, it suggested I check out tech publications that covered Logitech at the time such as Engadget and The Verge.

But most interesting was it's final suggestion was for me to browse consumer reviews and audiophile forums, and communities like Audiophile Style (formerly Computer Audiophile).

So this LLM is actually pointing me to this this community.