Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE - Questions and considerations...

Tinnitus Andronicus · April 18, 2023

I've been planning to get this DAC for a long time now, and the day when I have the funds together to place the order is getting closer. I know I want the KTE edition because USB is how I'm going to be getting the stream from my Windows 10 PC to the DAC (streaming Qobuz or local library DSD/PCM playback with JRiver MC30), and the enhanced USB circuit that comes with the KTE model will serve me especially well (no need for getting a DDC or hardware interface to 'clean up' the digital stream from my computer).

The question is: Do I want the optional preamp for an additional $600? I don't think I need it, since I'm going to connect the RCA outputs of the DAC to my integrated Elex-R and use that for volume management. Nevertheless, I'm still tempted to include the preamp. One concern I have is the rated 2.9V output of the RCA jacks. At present I am running two different DACs into my Elex-R and both of them have exactly 2.1V output (industry standard is 2V from what I've read). In terms of volume management with the Elex-R, this gives me a range from 7 o'clock (very quiet late night listening) to about 10 o'clock (LOUD but not uncomfortably so). The Elex-R has a line maximum input level of 10V so I'm not worried about overloading and clipping. But will the somewhat high output voltage from the Spring 3 cause me to sacrifice a practical range of volume control with my integrated amp? If the signal from the DAC is so hot that when using the volume knob on the integrated amp I'm going from quiet at 7 o'clock to LOUD at 8 o'clock then that's an issue.

Tim at Kitsune assures me that it's highly unlikely to be a problem with my setup. He's probably right. But I'm thinking that if the output of the DAC were too hot going into my Elex-R, I could compensate by lowering the volume on the preamp module in the DAC. Or is this a no-no? Tim advised me against multiple volume attenuation in the signal chain. I'm definitely not using Windows to manage playback volume for digital music, whether streamed from Qobuz or local library playback, both Qobuz desktop player and MC30 have exclusive audio control when running so the Windows soundcard isn't messing with the stream, and I have volume slider disabled in MC30). I've read that digital volume control sacrifices dynamic range when going below -10dB.

Is there any good reason I'd want to include the preamp when I place my order, assuming I am going to stick with my current setup? Why would anyone want a built-in preamp in the DAC, unless it's your only input source and you're routing it to a separate power amp or headphone amp. Even if you did have a separate power amp to connect the DAC directly to that, most of us will have multiple input sources (turntable, second DAC or CD player, auxiliary device) so that would require a separate preamp to handle more than one input source.

I'll save myself $600 by not adding the preamp module, but I want to be sure that it might not be worth adding the preamp for some reason? Is this optional preamp really just for those who only stream digital files into a desktop headphone amp system or active speakers?

Any other comments or considerations from those of you who own a Spring 3 DAC, please speak up. There's no way I can audition this DAC in person before buying and I want to be sure before place my order (it's not returnable). Thanks...

creativepart · April 20, 2023

The main reason to get the Pre-Amp addition is for future use. The standalone Halo Pre-Amp costs more than $600 - so, if in the future you wish to upgrade to a separate power amp having the pre-amp in the Spring would be a positive addition. If you don't move to separate power amps later, I see no reason to pay for it to use with an integrated amp.

HOWEVER, while I agree the KTE edition is the one to get, I would advise against thinking that this means using USB out of your Windows PC is now all you need.

You will always improve your SQ if you get your USB out of a dedicated audio network device or streamer separate of your Windows PC. Separate streamers are designed to do one job - provide simple network protocols to source streamed content from your streaming sources. Your PC is doing hundreds, maybe thousands, of processes in the background. None of them designed to shield your USB from noise.

Don't get the Spring pre-amp... but spend the money on a dedicated network streaming device.

Tinnitus Andronicus · April 20, 2023

You are certainly not the first to advise me to get a separate streaming device. Every time I've considered doing this, I've got confused about what exactly to buy and how to implement it. Will it stream files from the dedicated internal 4TB hard drive in my PC which holds all my music files, or do I need to stream from an external backup drive where the same files are stored? Will I still be able to use JRiver MC30 as my music software player on my PC, or do I have to switch to some other proprietary player, and will the UI be shown on my PC monitor? Is the streaming device connected to my PC or external drive with a cable or is it streaming by wifi network? So many questions, and I end up getting lost down the rabbit hole and saying "screw it, it sounds fine coming from my PC via USB and if I need to get something to measure noise I can't hear to prove it's there, why bother?" So this is a tangential issue that I'm still not clear about. And not every audiophile I've talked to shares the same opinion. The dealer where I bought most of my system (small local store) dismissed the notion that I need a separate streaming device, and Tim at Kitsune never said I should get something such as a separate streamer (though he did try to steer me in the direction of ditching my integrated amp for a separate pre/power amp setup). So I'm still holding off on shopping for a network streamer, and if I can't use JRiver MC to manage and play my local library, then I'm not going to pay for Roon or start using some different player. I've gotten used to JRiver and love the flexibility it offers in so many ways.

Jud · April 20, 2023

5 minutes ago, Tinnitus Andronicus said:

You are certainly not the first to advise me to get a separate streaming device. Every time I've considered doing this, I've got confused about what exactly to buy and how to implement it. Will it stream files from the dedicated internal 4TB hard drive in my PC which holds all my music files, or do I need to stream from an external backup drive where the same files are stored? Will I still be able to use JRiver MC30 as my music software player on my PC, or do I have to switch to some other proprietary player, and will the UI be shown on my PC monitor? Is the streaming device connected to my PC or external drive with a cable or is it streaming by wifi network? So many questions, and I end up getting lost down the rabbit hole and saying "screw it, it sounds fine coming from my PC via USB and if I need to get something to measure noise I can't hear to prove it's there, why bother?" So this is a tangential issue that I'm still not clear about. And not every audiophile I've talked to shares the same opinion. The dealer where I bought most of my system (small local store) dismissed the notion that I need a separate streaming device, and Tim at Kitsune never said I should get something such as a separate streamer (though he did try to steer me in the direction of ditching my integrated amp for a separate pre/power amp setup). So I'm still holding off on shopping for a network streamer, and if I can't use JRiver MC to manage and play my local library, then I'm not going to pay for Roon or start using some different player. I've gotten used to JRiver and love the flexibility it offers in so many ways.

You can do something along similar lines while keeping your regular computer, JRiver, etc., with a low noise mini-computer that will take the signal over Wi-Fi or Ethernet from your main computer, then connect to your DAC with the usual USB. Your regular computer does all the work; the mini-computer stays relatively electrically quiet and just transmits the signal.

There are dedicated mini-computers for this (for example the Rendu series from Sonore or Holo Audio Red), or if you like fiddling with Linux you can roll your own.

creativepart · April 20, 2023

It's not that complicated.

You connect your external streamer preferably via Ethernet connection to your router. If you got something with WiFi it will connect up to your WiFi Router, but wired is always better than wireless.

You run your player software on your PC and it serves your streaming services and audio files via the NETWORK to your streamer. None of that PC noise makes it from your PC into the network and to your network streamer.

Your PC monitor still shows Album Art and music playing progress just like normal. What you are doing is running a separate simpiler "computer" that does only one thing - deliver network audio to your DAC.

Why didn't others tell you that's what you need? I'd guess your local audio guy doesn't sell streamers or isn't into serious streaming. But if you're moving up to a Halo Spring 3 KTE you are into serious streaming. And, the folks at Halo don't want to complicate things they want you to buy the DAC, letting you figure out everything else.

Will USB out of your Windows PC work? Of course. Will it work well enough? Surely. Will it provide optimal sound quality? No, not really, but good enough if you're not seriously into streaming. But then you wouldn't be buying a Halo Audio Spring 3 KTE if you weren't seriously into great sounding streaming audio.

PS. Someone else will have to help you with J-River. I'm a dedicated Roon user and wouldn't consider using J-River though many find it a great option. I looked at using JRiver with a network streamer and the answer is No Problem - you communicate from J-River to your Streamer over the included DNLA porotocol. Which is a standard streaming protocol used by most if not all network streamers.

creativepart · April 20, 2023

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

There are dedicated mini-computers for this (for example the Rendu series from Sonore or Holo Audio Red), or if you like fiddling with Linux you can roll your own.

There are a ton of these available and many use Linux "behind the scenes" and don't take any Linux fiddling. The Rendu series you mentioned, as well as the SoTM SMS200 lineup and all Linux based network audio streamers/servers. Same with the various Rasberry Pi 3 and 4 derived streamers you either buy fully functioning or piece them together yourself.

Tinnitus Andronicus · April 20, 2023

I'm surprised Tim at Kitsune didn't mention the Holo Audio Red, a device I've looked at before, whereas he did suggest the Serene preamp during the course of our lengthy email conversation.

I know that wired is better than wireless when it comes to getting music to the streamer, but my living situation will not allow me to run a cable to the router which is located in another room (I rent a room in a home belonging to someone else, and they give me free internet access).

Jud · April 20, 2023

2 minutes ago, Tinnitus Andronicus said:

I know that wired is better than wireless when it comes to getting music to the streamer, but my living situation will not allow me to run a cable to the router which is located in another room (I rent a room in a home belonging to someone else, and they give me free internet access).

I'm sure the owner wouldn't mind if you just drilled a couple of unobtrusive holes.... 😉

Sounds like WiFi if it's something you'd be interested in. (Yes, I along with others think a wired connection is generally more consistently reliable. WiFi works fine but occasionally needed a little encouragement to reconnect, e.g., powering the mini-computer off and on.)

creativepart · April 20, 2023

Wifi is much better that Bluetooth, which I know you haven't mentioned. It's just better to use Ethernet, in general. Not something that's required. Not all of the Network Streamers have WiFi built in. So, if that's what you must use, then simply look for one of the many that do offer that option.

While cheaper network devices aren't always as good as more expensive streamers you can get started for as little as less than $200. I would think all would be s step up from running USB from your PC.

I have the SoTM SMS200 Ultra. It's plug and play. You connect it to your network (it doesn't come with WiFi but I think you can attach a WiFi adapter to it) and then the USB from the SMS200 connects to the USB DAC. It runs on Linux in the background and has an Admin interface based on a browser based GUI that makes Admin easy. It comes standard with half a dozen network protocols... including DNLA needed by J-River.

I've used it for a few years and am thrilled by the SQ. But I like to test things and went back to running USB out of my iMac to my DAC as a test earlier this year. I lived with that for a week or so, then switched back to the SMS200 Ultra. BOOM. The improvement was clear as can be in my system.

davide256 · May 3, 2023

The question in my mind is whether the premium paid for the KTE (~ $1000 USD) version gains you that much versus the level 1. Reviews

are conspicuously absent for level 1 and and I've only seen one review for the level 2. Granted the KTE has an upgraded USB section but

if one prefers I2S, thats not a gain.

Miska · May 3, 2023

I've been sticking to Level 2 since the beginning...

alexopth1512 · May 4, 2023

I have a working setup that could be similar to what you plan.

1. Streamer. Bought an Allo streamer for 300 bucks which is a Raspi 4B with a good digital output and of course USBs. So I can send to my DAC, either COAX or USB, whatever I want. The way i am feeding music:

- Tidal thru tidal connect with wifi. Works like a charm , supports MQA and hi res audio. If using USB I get upto 352KHz. I think 192 with MQA but in any case I have my laptop and play hires music thru wifi

- JRiver mediacenter, which installs fine on Allo as in any Rapbian OS. I use it for stored music I have on a USB disk and also shared from my home server thru NFS. I have bought and downloaded a lot of hires music and put i on a disk

- Browsing, youtube etc, which actually plays just fine

2. DAC. I have topping D90SE but have deactivated volume. If I would go back I would buy something without volume.

3. Remote controlled pre-amp.

Result is excellent and flexibility is really enormous, since I also have analogue sources

cpcat · May 23

Both the standard and KTE versions of the usb board are galvanically isolated and neither “need” a usb isolator/ddc from what I can gather.

If you already plan to use an external preamp or volume, just remember also that the optional holo preamp module can’t be bypassed. I am leaning currently toward the L2 without preamp for that reason, just to keep the signal path as simple as possible.

woshifeng3627 · September 13

On 5/4/2023 at 6:53 AM, Miska said:

I've been sticking to Level 2 since the beginning...

Is the USB enhanced version of Spring 3 KTE really not much use? I asked jeff about it, and he said that the USB-enhanced power supply clock is better designed

Miska · September 14

9 hours ago, woshifeng3627 said:

Is the USB enhanced version of Spring 3 KTE really not much use? I asked jeff about it, and he said that the USB-enhanced power supply clock is better designed

I don't know, the performance I'm getting from my hardware couldn't be much better in terms of clocks. When I ordered mine, the KTE was using the same USB module and had just different PSU transformers and some fancy fuse.

If someone wants to send me the KTE with new USB module for free for measurements, I can compare. But I'm not convinced enough to blindly spend extra money on it. And I know I could buy the same USB module for my L2 for a swap, but I have not seen reason to do so.

cpcat · September 14

1 hour ago, Miska said:

I don't know, the performance I'm getting from my hardware couldn't be much better in terms of clocks. When I ordered mine, the KTE was using the same USB module and had just different PSU transformers and some fancy fuse.

If someone wants to send me the KTE with new USB module for free for measurements, I can compare. But I'm not convinced enough to blindly spend extra money on it. And I know I could buy the same USB module for my L2 for a swap, but I have not seen reason to do so.

I am perfectly happy with Spring L2 V3.

I think the main question for me is whether the May would provide a noticeable jump in performance. I don’t have 2x 1U slots available currently however, unless the PS for the May has an extra long umbilical option.

bobfa · September 14

40 minutes ago, cpcat said:

I think the main question for me is whether the May would provide a noticeable jump in performance. I don’t have 2x 1U slots available currently however, unless the PS for the May has an extra long umbilical option.

I think you have to be careful the May gets quite warm and when confined it gets HOT!

cpcat · September 14

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I think you have to be careful the May gets quite warm and when confined it gets HOT!

Which gets hot, the PSU or DAC?

My Soring L2 V3 gets barely warm - constantly on for 3 mos since receiving it- and even sitting on an Integra DTC 9.8 pre/pro which is warm/hot.

Maybe I am good 😊

bobfa · September 14

I had my friend May here for a while, and they were stacked (no, the cable is not long enough to separate them.). They get hot as a pair.

Miska · September 14

17 hours ago, cpcat said:

I am perfectly happy with Spring L2 V3.

I think the main question for me is whether the May would provide a noticeable jump in performance. I don’t have 2x 1U slots available currently however, unless the PS for the May has an extra long umbilical option.

May does improve things over Spring, technically it is very straightforward and deterministic improvement (just considering the D/A and analog sections). From technical point of view the difference is not big, but very systematic. Of course it comes with a price tag as well, to extract last pieces of performance.

Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE - Questions and considerations...

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