TEAC UD-701N - Undiscovered gem or farce

rblnr · June 8, 2023

On 5/11/2023 at 11:09 AM, Norton said:

Thanks for posting this. I know it’s subjective opinion, but even from such a well established reviewer it seems a rather unusual position to find that “ESS offer listeners silky smooth sound….Think of ESS as a warm cosy bedroom”. I know implementation is all, but from experience, I’d describe ESS based DACs as tending towards a superdetailed, lean sound and with potential to sound hard, flat and fatiguing without careful implementation.

With my admittedly limited knowledge I’m also a bit confused from this review as to the UD701 tech - I thought it was a 1bit delta-sigma DAC but based on it’s own discrete solution rather than off the shelf chips, but the review describes it as multi-bit. Can a DAC be described as being both delta sigma and multibit? Maybe 2 different paths involved as per T&A etc?

Small subjective data point: used to have an Astell&Kern portable headphone amp that had both ESS and AKM chips, you could choose either pathway. The ESS chip was definitely smoother sounding than the AKM -- I actually preferred the AKM's more forward presentation. I have heard this 'smoothing' in other ESS DACs as well. Reminds me a little of comparing DSD with hirez PCM tracks, the DSD leaning smoother on the top end. I don't necessarily think one is better than the other, my taste simply runs more toward a little more upfront.

celestial_sound · July 8, 2023

For those who might be curious, I wanted to provide an update on my experience with the TEAC UD-701N after nearly five months of living with this exceptional unit.
I must say that the TEAC UD-701N has far surpassed all of my initial expectations. I wont go into any details and make a very long post I will just say that this unit is incrediable. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions or would like any particular insights based on my experience with the TEAC UD-701N.

I've also updated my audio system (CelestialSound Room) so you can see how this unit blended with my other components.

Cheers!

bodiebill · July 8, 2023

17 minutes ago, celestial_sound said:

For those who might be curious, I wanted to provide an update on my experience with the TEAC UD-701N after nearly five months of living with this exceptional unit.
I must say that the TEAC UD-701N has far surpassed all of my initial expectations. I wont go into any details and make a very long post I will just say that this unit is incrediable. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions or would like any particular insights based on my experience with the TEAC UD-701N.

I've also updated my audio system (CelestialSound Room) so you can see how this unit blended with my other components.

Cheers!

Similar sentiments here, after 4 months or so.

Shanepj · July 10, 2023

On 1/14/2023 at 11:55 AM, celestial_sound said:

In a recent time I discovered that TEAC has expended their reference line with the UD-701N DAC/Network payer upgrade from the previous UD 505. So I decided to make a bit of investigation on this new unit.

According to official site the specs are truly amazing. Custom developed delta sigma discrete DAC (not using off the shelf chip), 4 torodial transformers, fully balanced dual mono etc. Feature wise - anything you would ever need, including: Roon Ready, Spotify Connect, Tidal Connect (via update), custom streaming app (the same as found in Lumin streamers).

I thought to myself OK, lets do some more research and see how it compares with the matching product from their subsidiary company - Esoteric N-05XD.

I was literally shocked when i compared the internals from both units (images below).

They share the same custom developed delta sigma DAC module, the preamp section and headphone section.

This should be a real bargain, Esoteric machinery packed in not so luxury box for a 1/3 price. I mean, how many DACs are out there using custom developed DAC chips that cost < 3.5k. I can think only of one Chord Qutest but it would still be missing the 4 torods, network streamer, analog preamp and headphones amp.

So my dilemma here is, why no one talks about this unit yet? Stereophile never reviewed TEAC product in the last 20 years. Why no online reviews from the known magazines.

Why no raving reviews from the youtubers. Do I miss something, because imo this unit is very competitive at this price range (the device itself weights 12kgs).

What is your thoughts on this. Anyone had a chance to listen to this unit?

I think I can help a little with why the lack of reviews. Remember Onkyo owned the brand when the first UD-501 was released and it wasn’t a policy of Onkyo to take products for review due them usually getting negatively marked down as they didn’t want to pay for advertising and sadly many good reviews do warrant advertising by certain publications which of course is impossible to prove, but is common knowledge

I would’ve hoped that reviews would have arrived since the companies have been taken over, but haven’t seen any as yet

When I originally tested the UD-501 when it was first released, it was a hidden gem and I even purchased one as I couldn’t quite believe it. At the time my boss had an esoteric DAC and it performed to the same level as his which was about £4k at the time. I also remember lending one to a record producer I knew and he was astonished and he ended up buying one to

I even tried it in a £20k Krell system and it was indistinguishable from the Krell’s high quality DACs which was proof to me it was better than its price point

I was also lucky enough to hear the UD-505x the other day and have to report, compared to the UD-501, is still sounds fantastic although the newer 505x was a little smoother in its deliverance round the edges just a fraction

As for the UD-701, I expect it to be a killer when compared to other similarly priced DAC or even DAC’s costing two to three times it’s value

As for newer reviews, the US-505x or UD-701 will, I hope get the reviews they deserve, but as they deliver more the better electronics, it might be hard for a novice reviewer to truly appreciate how these DAC really come to life

The reason I say this is when comparing my UD-501 to products around its price point, it’s a bit lifeless, yet if you can bring the right toys to it, it will deliver a true feast for your ears and these products usually cost a small fortune and are way above the level of where Teac’s sit meaning the person who is looking for this kind of DAC will ignore it

Myself, it transformed the way I enjoy music. I build myself a media server and since then, I’ve never looked back

botrytis · July 10, 2023

5 hours ago, Shanepj said:

I think I can help a little with why the lack of reviews. Remember Onkyo owned the brand when the first UD-501 was released and it wasn’t a policy of Onkyo to take products for review due them usually getting negatively marked down as they didn’t want to pay for advertising and sadly many good reviews do warrant advertising by certain publications which of course is impossible to prove, but is common knowledge

I would’ve hoped that reviews would have arrived since the companies have been taken over, but haven’t seen any as yet

When I originally tested the UD-501 when it was first released, it was a hidden gem and I even purchased one as I couldn’t quite believe it. At the time my boss had an esoteric DAC and it performed to the same level as his which was about £4k at the time. I also remember lending one to a record producer I knew and he was astonished and he ended up buying one to

I even tried it in a £20k Krell system and it was indistinguishable from the Krell’s high quality DACs which was proof to me it was better than its price point

I was also lucky enough to hear the UD-505x the other day and have to report, compared to the UD-501, is still sounds fantastic although the newer 505x was a little smoother in its deliverance round the edges just a fraction

As for the UD-701, I expect it to be a killer when compared to other similarly priced DAC or even DAC’s costing two to three times it’s value

As for newer reviews, the US-505x or UD-701 will, I hope get the reviews they deserve, but as they deliver more the better electronics, it might be hard for a novice reviewer to truly appreciate how these DAC really come to life

The reason I say this is when comparing my UD-501 to products around its price point, it’s a bit lifeless, yet if you can bring the right toys to it, it will deliver a true feast for your ears and these products usually cost a small fortune and are way above the level of where Teac’s sit meaning the person who is looking for this kind of DAC will ignore it

Myself, it transformed the way I enjoy music. I build myself a media server and since then, I’ve never looked back

You mean this UD-501? It is in use almost every day.

I haven't used my TT or vinyl in 4 years.

bodiebill · July 10, 2023

Now playing DSD256 with the UD-701N from a USB attached M.2 drive. The network can be detached while playing. Absolutely wonderful.

Miska · July 18, 2023

Just arrive, and now doing my standard set of measurements... This is truly fun! 😁

celestial_sound · July 18, 2023

35 minutes ago, Miska said:

Just arrive, and now doing my standard set of measurements... This is truly fun! 😁

Wow. I'm very glad that you put your fingers on this unit :) Looking forward for your feedback!

bodiebill · July 18, 2023

@Miska 's emoticon probably means that it measures badly, but we already knew that. Of late bad measurements in this segment make me pay attention because it could show that it was designed by people who finetune the device by ear, not by numbers.

Miska · July 18, 2023

2 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

@Miska 's emoticon probably means that it measures badly, but we already knew that. Of late bad measurements in this segment make me pay attention because it could show that it was designed by people who finetune the device by ear, not by numbers.

It is one of the devices where HQPlayer makes amazing performance improvement compared to the built-in DSP. Measures nicely with HQPlayer, and thus nice companion for HQPlayer.

firedog · July 18, 2023

3 hours ago, Miska said:

It is one of the devices where HQPlayer makes amazing performance improvement compared to the built-in DSP. Measures nicely with HQPlayer, and thus nice companion for HQPlayer.

Are you going to publish the measurements?

bodiebill · July 18, 2023

Lately I experienced occasional stutter when playing, every 45 minutes or so. I was first looking at the source (Afterdark Diretta Netwok Bridge) and SW settings (HQPlayer or Album Player, both under GentooPlayer), but it kept occurring independent of these settings or the resolution of the source files and/or upsampling. Then, a few days ago, I changed the UD-701N from multibit to 1-bit, and the issue has not occurred since. I even forgot about it and wanted to try multibit again, and the occasional stutter was back. Anyone else experienced this? I am using USB input to the DAC.

Miska · July 18, 2023

33 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Lately I experienced occasional stutter when playing, every 45 minutes or so. I was first looking at the source (Afterdark Diretta Netwok Bridge) and SW settings (HQPlayer or Album Player, both under GentooPlayer), but it kept occurring independent of these settings or the resolution of the source files and/or upsampling. Then, a few days ago, I changed the UD-701N from multibit to 1-bit, and the issue has not occurred since. I even forgot about it and wanted to try multibit again, and the occasional stutter was back. Anyone else experienced this? I am using USB input to the DAC.

If you are sending DSD from HQPlayer to the DAC, that setting doesn't have effect...

bodiebill · July 18, 2023

5 minutes ago, Miska said:

If you are sending DSD from HQPlayer to the DAC, that setting doesn't have effect...

Then I am puzzled. The stuttering occurred with DSD256 as well as with PCM3xx, but so far only with multibit on. But as the issue is so infrequent, maybe it is just coincidence. I will report back when I find out another pattern...

celestial_sound · July 19, 2023

So, what are you initial impressions @Miska?

Does this unit lives the hype in this thread or it is just an ordinary piece of equipment?

bodiebill · July 20, 2023

On 7/18/2023 at 9:59 PM, bodiebill said:

Then I am puzzled. The stuttering occurred with DSD256 as well as with PCM3xx, but so far only with multibit on. But as the issue is so infrequent, maybe it is just coincidence. I will report back when I find out another pattern...

Today, for the first time, I had the short stutter when using the 1Bit setting. So still looking for the root cause...

Miska · July 20, 2023

The thing has so many settings that doing my measurements / testing took one and half days!

Today I was playing and listening music for quite a while, HQPlayer running on my Linux development machine, output to Holo Red running NAA OS image connected over USB to the DAC. No stutters or anything like that.

Since I posted also some measurement results on the T+A thread, maybe I post some results here too. Source is 44.1k file unless otherwise stated.

First with the default settings, NOS mode and multibit modulator. You can clearly see the stair stepping on the output waveform and the images around multiples of the sampling rate.

Then turning on 8x oversampling (max it can do), multibit modulator:

Same, but with 1-bit modulator DSD FIR1 setting:

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD256, UD-701N DSD FIR1 setting:

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD256, UD-701N DSD FIR2 setting:

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD256, DSD FIR disabled:

Upsampled by HQPlayer to DSD512, UD-701N DSD FIR1 setting:

Note that the DSD FIR setting has no effect on out-of-band noise! FIR2 is some kind of tubey-distortion-generator.

Multitone, 8x oversampling, multibit modulator:

8x oversampling, 1-bit modulator, DSD FIR1 setting:

Upsampled to DSD256 by HQPlayer, DSD FIR1 setting:

Upsampled to DSD256 by HQPlayer, DSD FIR disabled:

Jtest, 8x oversampling, multibit modulator:

8x oversampling, 1-bit modulator, DSD FIR1 setting:

Upsampled to DSD256 by HQPlayer, DSD FIR1 setting:

So, with HQPlayer, use DSD FIR1 or DSD FIR disabled. DSD256 or DSD512.

At DSD512, even with aggressive 7th order modulators, there are no ultrasonic noise bumps at all.

Output voltage levels are the same for both balanced and unbalanced output connections, so doesn't seem to be a fully balanced design.

The built-in 8x oversampling filter is very slow roll-off / leaky type.

Miska · July 21, 2023

On 7/19/2023 at 11:09 AM, celestial_sound said:

So, what are you initial impressions @Miska?

Does this unit lives the hype in this thread or it is just an ordinary piece of equipment?

It is certainly nice to see more discrete implementations!

What I've now listened through HQPlayer upsampling with my recommended settings, the overall character is quite neutral. Maybe gives slight "loudness" EQ kind of feeling with slight extra on low and high frequency ends. Otherwise I would characterise it a bit AKM chip style sonic character.

Nicoben45 · July 21, 2023

Hi Miska,

I use HQplayer with a Holo May and understand why HQplayer is a good choice with it, but here I try to understand …

The measurements are made on the analog outputs of the TEAC? How can we have peaks on these frequencies with the low pass filter shown by the manufacturer on his layout diagram before the analog stage? It seems impossible at least for the first graph, no?

And how can we make the link between these artifacts and the impact in the audible levels and frequencies? Having an Esoteric N05XD very close to the TEAC, I noticed like others the positive impact of sending DSD 512 or less to it, including by Roon's Muse engine on its network part, and you seem to make a direct causal link between these inaudible artifacts and the quality gain when listening, hence my neophyte questions 😅

Thank you for your response, Nicolas.

bodiebill · July 21, 2023

@Miska

I am using HQPe with poly-sinc-gauss-hires-ip / ASDM7ECv2 to send DSD256 to the UD-701N. For some reason I had the impression that this is the limit for this DAC. However I now see that you send DSD512 to it, so I tried that, but although the music seems to play in HQP Client, there is no sound, and the resolution indicator on the Teac remains empty. Am I doing something wrong?

Miska · July 21, 2023

2 hours ago, bodiebill said:

@Miska

I am using HQPe with poly-sinc-gauss-hires-ip / ASDM7ECv2 to send DSD256 to the UD-701N. For some reason I had the impression that this is the limit for this DAC. However I now see that you send DSD512 to it, so I tried that, but although the music seems to play in HQP Client, there is no sound, and the resolution indicator on the Teac remains empty. Am I doing something wrong?

I guess you are using it with DoP? With DoP the maximum is DSD256. With native DSD the maximum is DSD512.

The USB interface looks like half-baked there. The device name looks like a temporary one, and it claims to support up to 1.5M PCM and DSD1024. But in reality it doesn't. Maximum PCM input is 384k and maximum DSD input is DSD512.

bodiebill · July 22, 2023

8 hours ago, Miska said:

I guess you are using it with DoP? With DoP the maximum is DSD256. With native DSD the maximum is DSD512.

The USB interface looks like half-baked there. The device name looks like a temporary one, and it claims to support up to 1.5M PCM and DSD1024. But in reality it doesn't. Maximum PCM input is 384k and maximum DSD input is DSD512.

DoP is not checked in HQP.

I tried playing a DSD512 file from an SSD attached via USB to the Teac and that goes well.

When I try playing this same file with HQP with Direct SDM checked, there is no sound and neither any indication of sampling fequency on the Teac.

It could have something to do with my USB chain? But I assume you are also using USB as no other input gets to DSD512?

bodiebill · July 22, 2023

I also tried another player (Album Player) with the same result: unable to play DSD512 via USB into the Teac. The player plays and the streamer locks (changing light) but the Teac does nothing and there is no sample frequency rate shown next to 'USB'. The Teac does play DSD512 however when reading from a USB drive.

Does anyone succefully play DSD512 via USB into the Teac? Maybe mine has a bug?

Miska · July 23, 2023

9 hours ago, Nicoben45 said:

The measurements are made on the analog outputs of the TEAC?

Yes...

9 hours ago, Nicoben45 said:

How can we have peaks on these frequencies with the low pass filter shown by the manufacturer on his layout diagram before the analog stage? It seems impossible at least for the first graph, no?

Not sure I understand the question. But any digital filter has certain roll-off characteristics, stop-band attenuation, etc.

But first graph is with Upconvert = OFF, thus no digital filter.

In addition, the digital filter is before the modulator. The modulator itself produces 22.6/24.6 MHz output, so it has ample possibilities to produce all kinds of things. Then the conversion stage itself is kind of filter itself (albeit fairly low attenuation), followed by analog post-filter (typically something like 12 dB/oct or 18 dB/oct).

9 hours ago, Nicoben45 said:

And how can we make the link between these artifacts and the impact in the audible levels and frequencies? Having an Esoteric N05XD very close to the TEAC, I noticed like others the positive impact of sending DSD 512 or less to it, including by Roon's Muse engine on its network part, and you seem to make a direct causal link between these inaudible artifacts and the quality gain when listening, hence my neophyte questions 😅

These measured differences reflect part of the audible differences. But not all. So even if you would have two modulators that look the same in these results, could still sound very different.

Miska · July 23, 2023

On 7/22/2023 at 11:19 AM, bodiebill said:

It could have something to do with my USB chain? But I assume you are also using USB as no other input gets to DSD512?

Yes, USB from Holo Red running NAA OS to the UD-701N.

15 hours ago, bodiebill said:

Does anyone succefully play DSD512 via USB into the Teac? Maybe mine has a bug?

Yes... Which OS are you using to connect to the DAC? Maybe you are using DoP and thus being limited in terms of maximum DSD rate.

TEAC UD-701N - Undiscovered gem or farce

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